Saint Abuse

[Praxeas]

Originally Posted by n david

IMO, there's a big difference between Doctors and Counselors. I visit my Dr as needed, I would never seek advice or counseling from a secular therapist or psychologist.

We seek medical advice...because we trust they know what they are doing

[Praxeas]

He doesn't even speak. He just holds up large cardboard placards with memes on them

[n david]

Originally Posted by Praxeas

He doesn't even speak. He just holds up large cardboard placards with memes on them

[n david]

Originally Posted by Evang.Benincasa

If I did they would walk out.

Do the churches you preach in use projection?

[votivesoul]

Originally Posted by Evang.Benincasa

because the majority of the people in our church family were mostly friends of my wife and I before they ever set a foot in the baptismal tank. I spend a lot of time making friends, not "new converts." They start out as my friends, we keep it that way. We focus on being a family.

Please I mean no offense, and with all due respect, but you make the "new convert" situation sound pretty sanitary. I mean, I know what you're saying, but do you think the early church was like that?

Before I was married, and I had no other responsibilities but for my job, what you describe is exactly what I did. I made friends. I took people to lunch or dinner. Invited them over, went to Six Flags with them, played a pick up game of football, or whatever.

It was about time and friendship, nothing more. And almost exclusively with "new converts". In fact, doing the above is how I won several people. For others, it was how I discipled and trained them to live for God.

As a friend who loved their soul as my own.

After I married, while I was in college, my service to the Lord changed somewhat, but much was still the same. Befriend, invite over, spend time with, and as the Lord allowed, share the Word. God gave the increase.

Once we had our first child, there was a slight decrease in my pastoral activities, but mostly, I did the same kind of things.

After our second and now our third, I have taken my shepherding in a new direction: pastoring my family. Our oldest is not quite 5 years old, our youngest is just over five months.

Even then, while more limited, the following occurs: we have people over for dinner. We spend time with them. We go to their house for food, fellowship, and as God leads, some time in the Word.

We are part of a house church now and have been for about seven months. When we meet, as the Spirit leads, I share Scriptures and teach, encourage, and set an example as best as I can, but sometimes, I'm spending more time helping with the kids than actively participating in the meeting.

I have always felt the calling of a pastor was to love and cherish God's people and the lost by being a friend.

Jesus, friend of sinners, right? That's how I was won to the Lord, through friendship, not someone out to make a convert and get another notch in their belt.

[Evang.Benincasa]

Originally Posted by n david

Do the churches you preach in use projection?

They would walk out.

[Evang.Benincasa]

Originally Posted by votivesoul

Jesus, friend of sinners, right? That's how I was won to the Lord, through friendship, not someone out to make a convert and get another notch in their belt.

[votivesoul]

This is part of which I'm not sure I agree. I believe these issues (divorces, adultery, depression etc) is due to the lack of spiritual gifts and 5-fold gifts being used in the ministry...

These are additional reasons for the issues you bring up. But dig a little deeper and ask yourself: Where are the spiritual gifts? Where is the five-fold ministry?

Could it be that the reason these things are lacking is because they've been squelched or suppressed by the ministry?

A pastor of a church is only going to have the gifts God deems fit to give him and he can only serve his calling according to the grace God supplies. The rest of the charismata and the five-fold ministry have to come from somewhere else, namely the Body surrounding the pastor.

You grew up in this. In all your years, did you see an active Body of Christ fulfilling the work of the Lord, or did you see a select group of men and women doing all or almost all of the serving in the church while many of the saints kept their seats and soaked it all in?

...as well as people seeking for secular answers to a spiritual problem. Divorce and adultery is a spiritual issue. Depression could be a spiritual issue. A Christian shouldn't be consulting the witch of Endor for an answer they should get from God.

I agree. I don't believe secular resources are the answer. Psalm 1:1 comes to mind.

The Holy Spirit supplies everything we need to live a godly and holy life (which are matters of the psyche). If saints aren't tapping into that, then it's flesh, pure and simple.

[votivesoul]

Please I mean no offense, and with all due respect, but you make the "new convert" situation sound pretty sanitary. I mean, I know what you're saying, but do you think the early church was like that?

Some food for thought:

Saul, a new convert, immediately began preaching Jesus was the Messiah. Got himself into trouble and the Lord sent him away from the church to be by himself for three years in Arabia. A lot of learning and unlearning, no doubt. But it was all at the discretion of the King. No one discipled him but the Chief Shepherd and Bishop of his soul.

The Ethiopian Eunuch, fresh out of the waters of baptism, has his only connection to the church taken up and away by the Holy Spirit. He goes on his way rejoicing, no pastor, no new converts class, no fellowship of the saints. No nothing. Why did God do this?

Paul, traveling and evangelizing, planting churches, winning souls, baptizing some, takes off a few weeks later in some instances, and leaves fledgling churches to their own devices until he can come back around again.

How "sanitary" is all of the above? This is 1st century Roman Empire life; a Hellenized world. It was just as wicked, if not in some ways more so, than our world today.

And yet, "some were such of you, but you've been washed, you've been justified, you've been sanctified..."

Perhaps the reason Paul lit into the Corinthians so hard in his letters is because he spent so much time with them after he founded the church there? He expected more of them?

And yet, they were all of them carnal, un-spiritual, not even ready for milk. Incest, pagan idolatry, and whatever else besides still happening in the Lord's Body.

[Evang.Benincasa]

Originally Posted by votivesoul

Some food for thought:

Saul, a new convert, immediately began preaching Jesus was the Messiah. Got himself into trouble and the Lord sent him away from the church to be by himself for three years in Arabia. A lot of learning and unlearning, no doubt. But it was all at the discretion of the King. No one discipled him but the Chief Shepherd and Bishop of his soul.

The Ethiopian Eunuch, fresh out of the waters of baptism, has his only connection to the church taken up and away by the Holy Spirit. He goes on his way rejoicing, no pastor, no new converts class, no fellowship of the saints. No nothing. Why did God do this?

Paul, traveling and evangelizing, planting churches, winning souls, baptizing some, takes off a few weeks later in some instances, and leaves fledgling churches to their own devices until he can come back around again.

How "sanitary" is all of the above? This is 1st century Roman Empire live; a Hellenized world. It was just as wicked, if not in some ways more so, than our world today.

And yet, "some were such of you, but you've been washed, you've been justified, you've been sanctified..."

Perhaps the reason Paul lit into the Corinthians so hard in his letters is because he spent so much time with them after he founded the church there? He expected more of them?

And yet, they were all of them carnal, un-spiritual, not even ready for milk. Incest, pagan idolatry, and whatever else besides still happening in the Lord's Body.

Ethiopian Eunuch we know nothing about what he had done after Philip left for Azotus. He wasn't going to the temple, because eunuchs weren't allowed to be a part of religious worship in Israel Deuteronomy 23:1. I imagine Philip filled the Eunuch in on some sort of Christian fellowship prior to the Eunuch's baptism and Philip leaving immediately when the Spirit grabbed Philip and sent him on his journey to Azotus. Paul debated in Damascus, but was chased out of the city, he may of spent three years in Arabia, but when he gets to Jerusalem he spends 15 days with Peter, and then saw no other apostle but James Jesus' brother. Still after Paul preaches to the Gentiles he makes sure he goes into the church leadership in private and explains what he believes about the Gospel to the Romans. Paul may of had revelation by church government still came into play, and being a Pharisee he understood the teacher/leader system. New convert having borders I understand, but everyone from your neighbors to your children have some sort of guidelines to what they can and cannot do with you.

Still a family is just that a family, and leadership has to be accessible.

I hope I'm understanding you.