For those that left the UPC...

[Sam]

Originally Posted by shag

To me, the question all this basically hinges on is this: When exactly or at what point exactly did the Spirit become indwelling in the persons in scripture(in Acts), because a person can NOT inherit eternal life without the Spirit indwelling, because we are NOT His, according to this verse. (right?)

Romans 8:9 You, however, are controlled not by the sinful nature but by the Spirit, if the Spirit of God lives in you. And if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Christ.

So the question begs(1st, before discussing/deciding the necessity of tongues), did folks have the Spirit indwelling them before they recived the Spirit in Acts 2, 8, 10, and 19? It seems to me no, or they would not have recived the Spirit if it was already in them. And Rom. 8:9 reads we have to have His Spirit in us it to be His.
Maybe Im missing or overlooking something tho..?

No, you're not missing something.

There are a couple of different opinions here.

Some of us believe that at the moment a person repents and turns his/her life over to Jesus and asks Him into their life that He does come in as the Holy Spirit and saves us and regenerates us. Ephesians 1:13 says, "And now you Gentiles have also heard the truth, the Good News that God saves you. And when you believed in Christ, he identified you as his own by giving you the Holy Spirit, whom he promised long ago." 1 John 5:1 says, "If you believe that Jesus is the Christ --that He is God's Son and your Savior-- then you are a child of God." This salvation experience then may be followed up by a subsequent filling with the Spirit, a receiving of (making room for) the Spirit, or a Baptism in the Spirit.

Others do not believe that the Holy Spirit comes in or regenerates or saves a person until that person has spoken with tongues.

There are differences among Apostolics on this.

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by Sam

No, you're not missing something.

There are a couple of different opinions here.

Some of us believe that at the moment a person repents and turns his/her life over to Jesus and asks Him into their life that He does come in as the Holy Spirit and saves us and regenerates us. Ephesians 1:13 says, "And now you Gentiles have also heard the truth, the Good News that God saves you. And when you believed in Christ, he identified you as his own by giving you the Holy Spirit, whom he promised long ago." 1 John 5:1 says, "If you believe that Jesus is the Christ --that He is God's Son and your Savior-- then you are a child of God." This salvation experience then may be followed up by a subsequent filling with the Spirit, a receiving of (making room for) the Spirit, or a Baptism in the Spirit.

Others do not believe that the Holy Spirit comes in or regenerates or saves a person until that person has spoken with tongues.

There are differences among Apostolics on this.

What is interesting is that the issue is not pinpointed either way.

I argued that the experience in Acts 2 and 10 showed people having "received" the Had it "poured out" upon them, and "baptized" with the Spirit. All the terms used to signify the entrance of the Spirit were applied to Acts 2's experience. Someone else said that his only explanation otherwise was that Acts 2 showed both entrance and empowerment at the same time. He could not pinpoint any verse to prove this, but he said he believed it that way. The fact is it is not pinpointed either way. expressly. My only argument is that if the 120 received, had it poured out, and were baptized with it, Occam's razor says it is one and the same experience rather than two entrances of the Spirit.

[jfrog]

Originally Posted by mfblume

What is interesting is that the issue is not pinpointed either way.

I argued that the experience in Acts 2 and 10 showed people having "received" the Had it "poured out" upon them, and "baptized" with the Spirit. All the terms used to signify the entrance of the Spirit were applied to Acts 2's experience. Someone else said that his only explanation otherwise was that Acts 2 showed both entrance and empowerment at the same time. He could not pinpoint any verse to prove this, but he said he believed it that way. The fact is it is not pinpointed either way. expressly. My only argument is that if the 120 received, had it poured out, and were baptized with it, Occam's razor says it is one and the same experience rather than two entrances of the Spirit.

In which case Occam's razor also says that 1 Corinthians 12 and 14 are about the same type of tongues as the acts account. In which case not everyone speaks in tongues

I really hate Occam's razor though

[Sam]

Originally Posted by jfrog

In which case Occam's razor also says that 1 Corinthians 12 and 14 are about the same type of tongues as the acts account. In which case not everyone speaks in tongues

I really hate Occam's razor though

Well, I thought REAL holiness people didn't believe in razors.
A REAL holiness woman would not shave or alter the length of any body hair.
A REAL holiness man would not shave off his beard because that is his God-given mark of sexual distinction.

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by Sam

Well, I thought REAL holiness people didn't believe in razors.
A REAL holiness woman would not shave or alter the length of any body hair.
A REAL holiness man would not shave off his beard because that is his God-given mark of sexual distinction.

The razor is for women only. NEVER MEN!!!!!! lol

[Godsdrummer]

Originally Posted by Sam

No, you're not missing something.

There are a couple of different opinions here.

Some of us believe that at the moment a person repents and turns his/her life over to Jesus and asks Him into their life that He does come in as the Holy Spirit and saves us and regenerates us. Ephesians 1:13 says, "And now you Gentiles have also heard the truth, the Good News that God saves you. And when you believed in Christ, he identified you as his own by giving you the Holy Spirit, whom he promised long ago." 1 John 5:1 says, "If you believe that Jesus is the Christ --that He is God's Son and your Savior-- then you are a child of God." This salvation experience then may be followed up by a subsequent filling with the Spirit, a receiving of (making room for) the Spirit, or a Baptism in the Spirit.

Others do not believe that the Holy Spirit comes in or regenerates or saves a person until that person has spoken with tongues.

There are differences among Apostolics on this.

Sam

I used to beleive and teach you did not have or get the holy ghost until you spoke in tongues. Over the last 10 years that has changed through experiance and understanding of the scriptures.

It is strange in away I have become what I preached against 20 years ago. In the eyes of many I am the backslider. I don't go to a Apostolic/Pentecostal church. My wife wears pants, cuts her hair etc. I even enjoy a cold beer or glass of wine on occasion. This changed though did not come overnight. In a sence what they say about things not happening over night that is true. But I did not let down standards a little at a time. For over 10 years after I realized that they were not bible I still preached and beleived we should be different ie seperate.

The same thing happend with prophecy teaching. It took me three to four years to accept that all prophecy has been fulfilled. Even in the face to scripture after scripture proving the view I used to have was wrong.

The point to all of this as you said in an earlier post we should not, what was the word, aw well we should give leway to others opinions. I hope I am doing that, if I come accross differently everyone forgive me. I come accross with the attitude that I am right you are wrong and that is not the intent.

If I and many others are right God will intime reveile to you these truths if we are wrong God will, as long as we have a right spirit show us the truth. So long as we have a right spirit.

[DrPhil]

What do you mean all prophecy has been fulfilled? You are not referring to the cessastionist doctrine are you? Btw. I went to Africa for three weeks and I thought you would have all of thse issues resolved by now. Africa was an interesting perspective. The Holy Spirit is moving accross many denominations. The differences aren't near as imporant as whether the "river of God" is flowing in the church. In the last days he is pouring out his spirit on all flesh (Prophecy being fulfilled)

[tv1a]

Just came across an e-mail I got a couple years ago from a "concerned" upc woman. This is the mindset of the legalistic group.

I almost feel sorry for this loser.

Subject: I'm praying for you
(My Name),

I have been very troubled since I seen you and your family at parkersburg. If you all are doing as the pastor says and are letting down on our old landmarks which are still very important, then God help you all.
I have never understood how you can believe in seperation from the world and then a man can come in your life and preach something totally out of the will of God and you can follow so easily. I could not believe my eyes when I seen (my wife's name) and your daughter in pants and their hair cut. my spirit grieved and has continued to do so every since. I only have one more thing to say, I am not trying to be critical but you all know the full truth , when you made the comment to me "we had 50 young people and they are coming from far off, my comment is, Troy it's not hard to get a crowd when you are the same as the next church, but the word of God says be seperate from the world, you are in this world not of this world, you can't stand out and be different dressing like everyone else. I know you can have standard and not make it to heaven with a rotten attitude, but it takes seperation and a clean heart. I really am not trying to be offensive, but I believe you need to wake up, the bible talks about a great falling away, please follow the word of God, not the man.


I really am very concerned
(signed by preacher's wife)

[Mirth1981]

Originally Posted by tv1a

Just came across an e-mail I got a couple years ago from a "concerned" upc woman. This is the mindset of the legalistic group.

I almost feel sorry for this loser.

I do feel sorry for whoever wrote this letter. If she ever comes to the realization that her "holiness standards" are not in the Bible, she is going to feel awfully foolish, isn't she?

[JoeHardy07]

She may find a lot of things that she thinks she know are not there.