Lot's Revelation of Grace

[rrford]

Originally Posted by Edward Anglin

BTW, I think some of us are being way too critical.

The story of Lot's family has always amazed and concerned me.

I didn't expect everyone to agree with all of it. Nor did I expect it to get a free pass, here of all places. The intent was to motivate thought. Unfortunately, there are some who read only to critique and not to see if there is any merit at all.

I still contend that the spirit of the city worked it's way into the life of Lot. That in no way negates the words of Peter. The totality of scripture is indeed necessary and one cannot negate the man's actions nor the ords of those telling the story. The two must reconcile and I feel that they do. But I sure am not inclined to take the time and do an exegetical outline for folks here who well know the merit of what was written but would rather use it as a battering ram t hammer me personally. I have thick skin, but it is selective.

Lastly, the comment about what the "Pastor teaches" I would think would surely have been understood to mean Biblical teaching. It is absolutely amazing that I did not mention a specific teaching at all, yet folks have attributed a motive and meaning to me. That is just as wrong as the supposed error they see in what I have written.

But hey, this thread got more replies than most of mine have here.

[rgcraig]

Originally Posted by rrford

But hey, this thread got more replies than most of mine have here.

Ah, you know you are loved here!

[rrford]

Originally Posted by Baron1710

I was enjoying your story and then, wow it took a bit of a turn and became well frankly unbiblical and illogical.

What does the teaching of a man, call him pastor if you like, have anything to do with, living an ungodly lifestyle? There is no foundation whatsoever for this jump in logic.

Then the story of Lot gets completely twisted to try and support your assertions.

for instance you say:



And yet Peter, inspired by the Holy Spirit, writes:

II Peter 2:7-8
But God also rescued Lot out of Sodom because he was a righteous man who was sick of the shameful immorality of the wicked people around him. 8 Yes, Lot was a righteous man who was tormented in his soul by the wickedness he saw and heard day after day.

Is it not entirely possible that Lot's lingering was to try and urge his family to come with him? That at least is plausible, your story contradicts the Scripture itself.

So it seems to me you have read a lot more into Lot's life than Peter did. Those of us who embrace grace see this from you folks who want to beat people over the head all the time. The interesting thing here is that you criticize and critique a man that God calls righteous.

Then you just keep going down the road of how horrible Lot is, reading into Scripture what it doesn't say and ignoring what it does say. The angel of the Lord tells him it was fine to stay on the plains, but that didn't fit into your sermon, so we will omit that fact.

Then you make this huge leap in logic that "grace" somehow causes Lot all these problems and insinuating that those that don't "listen to the pastor" will end up like Lot.

Frankly I would rather be like Lot, at least I know that God declared Lot righteous.

To his own master he stands or falls. You cut the legs out from under a man that God called righteous. Talk about a disgrace.

And obviously you have forgotten that "righteous man" offered his daughters sexually to strangers, pleaded with God to not go where God wanted him to go and committed incest with his daughters. There is scripture...

If I have twisted the meaning of the Epistle you have twisted the result of the "righteous" man's actions.

[rrford]

Originally Posted by rgcraig

Ah, you know you are loved here!

I reckon. At least by some. Obviously a few on this thread still have not learned how to post to the subject and leave the personality out of it. For the most part I try to deal with issues and not people. Now, there are one or two folks around here that I have posted to the person and not the issue. Kind of regret that for the most part.

[rgcraig]

I believe threads like this are good for everyone around......thought provoking, open for discussion, sharpening the iron - - we can all learn from it.

You aren't looking for a pat on the back!

[rrford]

Originally Posted by rgcraig

I believe threads like this are good for everyone around......thought provoking, open for discussion, sharpening the iron - - we can all learn from it.

You aren't looking for a pat on the back!

Nope. Gave up those pursuits years ago when I realized most of the folks patting you on the back also know how to stab you in the back.

[Sam]

Originally Posted by Edward Anglin

BTW, I think some of us are being way too critical.

The story of Lot's family has always amazed and concerned me.

Abram and his clan went to Egypt (rather than trust God during a famine), and there lied about his relationship with his wife (Genesis 12:10-20). He later went "up" out of Egypt and returned to the land (Genesis 13:1-4) to Bethel (house of God) and to the place of the altar where he had first called on God. However, he had amassed wealth/flocks/herds so the land was no longer able to sustain both him and Lot. They had to split up and Abram gave Lot first choice as to where he wanted to go. Lot looked at the well-watered plain and pitched his tent toward Sodom (Genesis 13:5-13). Later, we see that Lot was dwelling "in" Sodom (Genesis 14:12) and was carried off captive with others who dwelt there. In Genesis 19:1 we find that Lot sat in the gate of Sodom so he must have had a position of authority and respect there. One neat thing (to me anyway) is that Lot was spared because of Abram's prayers (Genesis 19:29).

Lot is a good example of the grace of God. The Apostle Peter calls him a righteous man (2 Peter 2:6-9) and refers to him as "just" and also "godly." He was not perfect but he was one of God's saints.

[Rhoni]

Originally Posted by rrford

I reckon. At least by some. Obviously a few on this thread still have not learned how to post to the subject and leave the personality out of it. For the most part I try to deal with issues and not people. Now, there are one or two folks around here that I have posted to the person and not the issue. Kind of regret that for the most part.

You are no different from the rest of us if I remember your history correctly. I was one of the ones you have personally attacked on many occasions...but I forgive you.

Blessings, Rhoni

[notofworks]

Originally Posted by rrford

Nope. Gave up those pursuits years ago when I realized most of the folks patting you on the back also know how to stab you in the back.

Boy, now THAT'S the truth!

[Sam]

Titus 2:11-15 tells us
what grace has brought (salvation)
what grace has wrought (created a people for His possession)
what grace has taught (saying no to sin and living for God)
and what we can say some time in the future what grace has caught (raptured or caught away God's saints).