Let Us Make Man: The Revelation

[Michael The Disciple]

26: And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.
27: So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them. Gen. 1:26-27

It is not as hard as it seems. The main thing we need to know is this.

Who was God? The Hebrew for God is ELOHIM.

So who was Elohim who said let us make man in our image and likeness?

We will allow the Patriarch Jacob also known as Israel to answer the question for us.

15: And he blessed Joseph, and said, Elohim, before whom my fathers Abraham and Isaac did walk, the Elohim which fed me all my life long unto this day,
16: The Angel which redeemed me from all evil, bless the lads; and let my name be named on them, and the name of my fathers Abraham and Isaac; and let them grow into a multitude in the midst of the earth. Gen. 48:15-16

In verse 15 the word God is used two times as Jacob blesses his Grandsons. He describes the very God (Elohim) who was Abraham and Issacs God.

In verse 16 he says THE ANGEL is his God. The Angel then is Elohim HIMSELF.

So The Angel Of Elohim is Elohim.

So when Elohim (the Angel) says let us make Man after our likeness he is addressing the Angels.

They themselves are made in his image. The image of Elohim.

Men will have a likeness after that of Angels.

Angels are referred to as MEN various times in scripture.

For example in Daniel:

15: And it came to pass, when I, even I Daniel, had seen the vision, and sought for the meaning, then, behold, there stood before me as the appearance of a man.
16: And I heard a man's voice between the banks of Ulai, which called, and said, Gabriel, make this man to understand the vision. Dan. 8:15-16

21: Yea, whiles I was speaking in prayer, even the man Gabriel, whom I had seen in the vision at the beginning, being caused to fly swiftly, touched me about the time of the evening oblation. Dan. 9:21

Gabriel one of the greatest Angels is called A MAN!

Angels look like MEN. Why? Because we are made in their image.

So after Elohim said let us make man after OUR IMAGE then we read:

27: So Elohim created man in his own image, in the image of Elohim created he him; male and female created he them.

Elohim alone then makes man proving he was speaking to the Angels OUT OF COURTESY when he says "let us make man".

They dont make man he does. The verse also proves Elohim had an image and likeness. The angels and ourselves are made after it!

So bottom line:

Elohim (Angel of YHWH) is our Creator. Not three distinct persons of YHWH.

[A.W. Bowman]

While the conclusion that man was not created by "three distinct persons" is correct, the study of Hebrew words from this passage does not work.

The angel (mal·äk) referred to in vs 16 is to be understood as: The angel who redeemed me is The angel who was usually sent to me in my distress, as the matter is stated: “And an angel of God said to me in a dream, ‘Jacob!…I am the God of Bethel’ ” (Gen. 31:11-13). - [after Targum Jonathan ben Uzziel]

The word, mal·äk, the theophanic angel, is understood to be God expressing Himself in human form, being Himself His own personal messenger. Sometimes referred to as The Angel of the Lord". Also see all of Gen 18 with emphases on vs 33.

In the Gen 1 reference, Elohim (singular intensive) is the plural of 'el, the shortened form of ah'·yil.

In the vs 16 we have, "The Angel which redeemed me from all evil, bless the lads; and let my name be named on them, and the name of my fathers Abraham and Isaac; and let them grow into a multitude in the midst of the earth.." the conceptual translation should read something like this:

"God, who appeared unto me in the form of a man, and who redeemed me from all evil, ..."

Cautionary Note:

Attempting to interpret the Bible according to doctrinal filters can be a dangerous path to follow. It can lead to scriptural/spiritual misunderstandings and misapplication of the word of God. Also, combining scriptures together simply because they contain the same words, such a the term "perfect", may also lead to incorrect (incomplete) understandings and application of scripture. See Psalms 101:2. There are two different Hebrew words translated as "perfect", and neither term, as used in this verse, means "Being complete of its kind and without defect or blemish", a common English definition for perfect.

[edjen01]

are you just trying to prove that God is a man and not a woman?

[Michael The Disciple]

Originally Posted by HaShaliach

While the conclusion that man was not created by "three distinct persons" is correct, the study of Hebrew words from this passage does not work.

The angel (mal·äk) referred to in vs 16 is to be understood as: The angel who redeemed me is The angel who was usually sent to me in my distress, as the matter is stated: “And an angel of God said to me in a dream, ‘Jacob!…I am the God of Bethel’ ” (Gen. 31:11-13). - [after Targum Jonathan ben Uzziel]

The word, mal·äk, the theophanic angel, is understood to be God expressing Himself in human form, being Himself His own personal messenger. Sometimes referred to as The Angel of the Lord". Also see all of Gen 18 with emphases on vs 33.

In the Gen 1 reference, Elohim (singular intensive) is the plural of 'el, the shortened form of ah'·yil.

In the vs 16 we have, "The Angel which redeemed me from all evil, bless the lads; and let my name be named on them, and the name of my fathers Abraham and Isaac; and let them grow into a multitude in the midst of the earth.." the conceptual translation should read something like this:

"God, who appeared unto me in the form of a man, and who redeemed me from all evil, ..."

Cautionary Note:

Attempting to interpret the Bible according to doctrinal filters can be a dangerous path to follow. It can lead to scriptural/spiritual misunderstandings and misapplication of the word of God. Also, combining scriptures together simply because they contain the same words, such a the term "perfect", may also lead to incorrect (incomplete) understandings and application of scripture. See Psalms 101:2. There are two different Hebrew words translated as "perfect", and neither term, as used in this verse, means "Being complete of its kind and without defect or blemish", a common English definition for perfect.

Conceptional translation that you quote as if it were scripture is not scripture. Scripture itself is. A concept is man tying some thoughts together as a basis of understanding.

The LXX is no different than the Masorite Text in this context.

15 And he blessed them and said, The God in whose sight my fathers were well pleasing, even Abraam and Isaac, the God who continues to feed me from my youth until this day; 16 the angel who delivers me from all evils, bless these boys, and my name shall be called upon them, and the name of my fathers, Abraam and Isaac; and let them be increased to a great multitude on the earth. Gen. 48:15-16

One may dispute the Angel is God.

Jacob saw him on several occasions and was blessed with his favor to father the twelve tribes of Israel. He actually wrestled with him face to face.

He said this Angel was ELOHIM.

So you would not convince Jacob this was just a temporary "pop up" angel.

[A.W. Bowman]

Added comment:

Elohim (Angel of YHWH) is our Creator. While the Angel of the Lord is God (Elohim) manifested in human form, this statement implies that it was God in "human form, as an angel" that created man, and that that human form's name (identification) is Elohim.

While scripturally it is a stretch, it is not outside of the realm of possibility. And, yes, God does have a "form". See Isaiah 6 and Danial 7 & 8 - and implied in Gen 3:8

[A.W. Bowman]

Originally Posted by edjen01

are you just trying to prove that God is a man and not a woman?

Not me! LOLOL

[A.W. Bowman]

He said this Angel was ELOHIM.

I agree. See cited references, above.

[A.W. Bowman]

Conceptional translation that you quote as if it were scripture is not scripture. Scripture itself is. A concept is man tying some thoughts together as a basis of understanding.

This statement is also quite correct. However, if one translates Hebrew straight into English, it would make little to no sense as at all, Hebrew being a conceptual (concrete & verb based) language while English and Greek are abstract (Existing only in the mind; separated from embodiment & noun based) in nature. It would be akin to translating the instruction, Go West (Hebrew: sun moving in the direction of - toward or down in to the sea) into mathematical equations (west as a function of magnetic deviations dependent on one's location on earth and the earth's tilt at the time of measurement) - it looses something in the translation. So, we have created a whole dictionary of of English terms in an attempt to better understand the intent of the writers. Almost all of that is reduced to "thought for thought" That is one reason why it frequently takes a number of words in English to adequately express one (concept/thought) word in Hebrew.

I highly recommend the study of Hebrew (and Greek) for those who would become Bible teachers.

[Michael The Disciple]

Originally Posted by HaShaliach

This statement is also quite correct. However, if one translates Hebrew straight into English, it would make little to no sense as at all, Hebrew being a conceptual (concrete & verb) language while English and Greek are abstract (Existing only in the mind; separated from embodiment & noun based) in nature. It would be akin to translating the instruction, Go West (Hebrew: sun moving in the direction of - toward or down in to the sea) into mathematical equations (magnetic deviations dependent on one's location on earth and the earth's tilt at the time of measurement) - it looses something in the translation. So, we have created a whole dictionary of of English terms in an attempt to better understand the intent of the writers. Almost all of that is reduced to "thought for thought" That is one reason why it frequently takes a number of words in English to adequately express one (concept/thought) word in Hebrew.

I highly recommend the study of Hebrew (and Greek) for those who would become Bible teachers.

The Scribes, Pharisees, and Lawyers were no doubt learned in the Hebrew. It made no difference in their understaning. They could not see the truth. Many Trinitarian scholars are learned in Hebrew and Greek today yet believe in three co equal, co eternal persons who are each one YHWH.

Just because a Oneness may know Biblical languages is no sign truth will prevail in him.

[A.W. Bowman]

For those who might like to explore this kind of study further, there is a Greek studies thread (http://www.apostolicfriendsforum.com...ighlight=Greek) that is a good place for this kind of discussion.