Has the entire earth already heard the gospel?

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by 1399

(1) Maybe I am.

(2) Jesus can come for you or me at any moment.

The great "Catching Away" of the Saints that we hope for through scripture will NOT happen until every person alive has had the opportunity to hear and respond to the Gospel.

God is a God of justice. He will not take away the hope of salvation from anyone who has never even had that hope in the first place.

So you do not not believe in the imminency of His return? That's fine. Just wanting clarification.

I believe He can come at any moment, and that Matt 24:14 was fulfilled in the first century since it is actually talking about the THEN-KNOWN world.

I have those who agree with me, whom I did not know agreed when I first saw this, myself:

Matt 24:14 In all the world, εν ολη τη οικουμενη. Perhaps no more is meant here than the Roman empire; for it is beyond controversy that πασαν την οικουμενην, Luk_2:1, means no more than the whole Roman empire: as a decree for taxation or enrolment from Augustus Caesar could have no influence but in the Roman dominions; but see on Luk_2:1 (note). Tacitus informs us, Annal. l. xv., that, as early as the reign of Nero, the Christians were grown so numerous at Rome as to excite the jealousy of the government; and in other parts they were in proportion. However, we are under no necessity to restrain the phrase to the Roman empire, as, previously to the destruction of Jerusalem, the Gospel was not only preached in the lesser Asia, and Greece, and Italy, the greatest theatres of action then in the world; but was likewise propagated as far north as Scythia; as far south as Ethiopia; as far east as Parthia and India; and as far west as Spain and Britain. On this point, Bishop Newton goes on to say, That there is some probability that the Gospel was preached in the British nations by St. Simon the apostle; that there is much greater probability that it was preached here by St. Paul; and that there is an absolute certainty that it was planted here in the times of the apostles, before the destruction of Jerusalem. See his proofs. Dissert. vol. ii. p. 235, 236. edit. 1758. St. Paul himself speaks, Col_1:6, Col_1:23, of the Gospel’s being come into All The World, and preached To Every Creature under heaven. And in his Epistle to the Romans, Rom_10:18, he very elegantly applies to the lights of the Church, what the psalmist said of the lights of heaven. Their sound went into All The Earth, and their words unto the End of the World. What but the wisdom of God could foretell this? and what but the power of God could accomplish it?

[Jermyn Davidson]

Originally Posted by mfblume

So you do not not believe in the imminency of His return? That's fine. Just wanting clarification.

I believe He can come at any moment, and that Matt 24:14 was fulfilled in the first century since it is actually talking about the THEN-KNOWN world.

I have those who agree with me, which I d d not know agreed when I first saw this, myself:

Let me be clear when I say that I believe God can come for you or me at any moment, I am speaking of physical death. When that happens for a believer, God has come back for that soul.


As for the "Rapture", I do not believe it is imminent. I believe it is close. I believe I could see it in my lifetime.

But I do not believe that every person on earth right now has heard the Gospel.

Neither do I believe there has been a time yet when everyone on earth has heard the Gospel.

But the time will come when everyone on earth will hear or have heard the Gospel. Then it would be a matter of moments for the Great Catching Away!

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by 1399

Let me be clear when I say that I believe God can come for you or me at any moment, I am speaking of physical death. When that happens for a believer, God has come back for that soul.

Yes, I thought that was what you meant.

As for the "Rapture", I do not believe it is imminent. I believe it is close. I believe I could see it in my lifetime.

But I do not believe that every person on earth right now has heard the Gospel.

But what if everyone on earth hearing the gospel has nothing to do with when the rapture occurs?

Neither do I believe there has been a time yet when everyone on earth has heard the Gospel.

But the time will come when everyone on earth will hear or have heard the Gospel. Then it would be a matter of moments for the Great Catching Away!

Can you prove that is what Matt 24:14 is talking about, though?

Just inspiring some thought.

[Jermyn Davidson]

Originally Posted by mfblume

Can you prove that is what Matt 24:14 is talking about, though?

Just inspiring some thought.

The very next verse talks about the "abomination that causes desolation standing in the holy place."

To my knowledge, nothing has happened that would equate to that-- not yet.

Furthermore, things are bad now, but they could clearly be much worse, as far as wars, nations rising, famines and earthquakes.

I believe that Christians on a wide scale will be persecuted, before the return of Christ. You can see where this thought could lead this thread and I am not really interested in going in that direction.


Things are bad, but they will get worse before "that great and notable day."

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by 1399

The very next verse talks about the "abomination that causes desolation standing in the holy place."

To my knowledge, nothing has happened that would equate to that-- not yet.

The same note is found in Luke 21 which explains mor eabout this event:

[Luke 21:20-22 And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh. (21) Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto. (22) For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.

If we know history, it did already happen.

This occurred in the first century, and the abomination that makes desolate occurred when Zealots entered into the temple killed the high priest and set up a profane person as high priest in the most holy place. Rome surrounded Jerusalem. The Romans brought idols on their standards into the city which was the HOLY CITY Jerusalem.

Consider some scholars:

Originally Posted by ADAM CLARKE

Mat 24:15
The abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel - This abomination of desolation, St. Luke, (Luk_21:20, Luk_21:21), refers to the Roman army; and this abomination standing in the holy place is the Roman army besieging Jerusalem; this, our Lord says, is what was spoken of by Daniel the prophet, in the ninth and eleventh chapters of his prophecy; and so let every one who reads these prophecies understand them; and in reference to this very event they are understood by the rabbins. The Roman army is called an abomination, for its ensigns and images, which were so to the Jews. Josephus says, (War, b. vi. chap. 6), the Romans brought their ensigns into the temple, and placed them over against the eastern gate, and sacrificed to them there. The Roman army is therefore fitly called the abomination, and the abomination which maketh desolate, as it was to desolate and lay waste Jerusalem; and this army besieging Jerusalem is called by St. Mark, Mar_13:14, standing where it ought not, that is, as in the text here, the holy place; as not only the city, but a considerable compass of ground about it, was deemed holy, and consequently no profane persons should stand on it.

Furthermore, things are bad now, but they could clearly be much worse, as far as wars, nations rising, famines and earthquakes.

I believe that Christians on a wide scale will be persecuted, before the return of Christ. You can see where this thought could lead this thread and I am not really interested in going in that direction.

Many here already know my beliefs on this, and I am not wanting to go into that direction completely either, but it does relate to this thread. But earthquakes and wears were wildly in occurrence after the cross until Jerusalem was destroyed. I have history to prove it.

[Jermyn Davidson]

Originally Posted by mfblume

The same note is found in Luke 21 which explains mor eabout this event:



If we know history, it did already happen.

This occurred in the first century, and the abomination that makes desolate occurred when Zealots entered into the temple killed the high priest and set up a profane person as high priest in the most holy place. Rome surrounded Jerusalem. The Romans brought idols on their standards into the city which was the HOLY CITY Jerusalem.

Consider some scholars:





Many here already know my beliefs on this, and I am not wanting to go into that direction completely either, but it does relate to this thread. But earthquakes and wears were wildly in occurrence after the cross until Jerusalem was destroyed. I have history to prove it.

Isn't there a phenomenon with scripture where some prophecies can have more than one meaning or more than one fulfilling?


I haven't given a whole lot of serious thought to this subject-- I just believe that Christ is not returning until the whole world hears the Gospel and that hasn't happened yet.

The history you refer to, does it include history of the (then) unknown regions of the world (like North America, Iceland and the Canary Islands)?



Then there is the question with huge implications:

Which Gospel?

Oneness, "Easy-Believism"-- if PAW reaches Madagascar with the Gospel, but their Missionaries don't preach standards, then, for some, those folks are still lost in sin because they are not holy.


Do you realize just how many folk live in China?
Do you really think God is going to come back without giving them all a chance for salvation?

If you think God will come back without letting them hear the Gospel, then you have to believe that the "Acts 2:38" model of "The Gospel" can not be the only way for someone to have saving faith in Christ.

Unless you're willing to make the leap that God is just going to destroy all those folks, without a chance, without a hope-- doomed to an eternity of torture by the Hands of a Savior that refused to reach out and save them.

Doesn't sound like the Savior I know loves me....

[Jermyn Davidson]

hey bro, I gotta get going-- I'll check back later for a response.

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by 1399

Isn't there a phenomenon with scripture where some prophecies can have more than one meaning or more than one fulfilling?

That is only the case when it comes to prophecies stated in the old testament that have an old testament fulfillment and a greater fulfillment in the new. Never do we find two new testament time fulfillments of one prophecy though.

I haven't given a whole lot of serious thought to this subject-- I just believe that Christ is not returning until the whole world hears the Gospel and that hasn't happened yet.

The reason you think that way is due to what you believe Matt 24:14 is saying, when other scriptures show that the phrase "ALL THE WORLD" does not mean what most think.

The history you refer to, does it include history of the (then) unknown regions of the world (like North America, Iceland and the Canary Islands)?

The then-known world did not include many places like North America . It referred to the Romans Empire. Rome was called a world empire because it ruled the THEN-KNOWN world. No one knew about North America in that empire.

Do you realize just how many folk live in China?
Do you really think God is going to come back without giving them all a chance for salvation?

I cannot say. The bible does not tell us. It does not matter what I think God will do. I could be missing some information He has not shared with anyone that would change the whole picture! Believe it or not, I think God withholds some things from us., and we'd be crazy to assume we correctly know what He should do.

If you think God will come back without letting them hear the Gospel, then you have to believe that the "Acts 2:38" model of "The Gospel" can not be the only way for someone to have saving faith in Christ.

Incorrect. We just believe whether they heard the gospel or not, if they are lost they are lost. Some say creation can tell everyone the Gospel.

Anyway, who knows? The bible does not say. We can try to ASSUME what God will do, but we do not know.

Unless you're willing to make the leap that God is just going to destroy all those folks, without a chance, with a hope-- doomed to an eternity of torture by the Hands of a Savior that refused to reach out and save them.

Doesn't sound like the Savior I know loves me....

That is a common reaction. But is it a correct basis?

I believe it does not matter what WE THINK the Creator is and is not. He is going to do what He is going to do whether it fits our scheme of things in our limited minds or not. We just have to learn from His word what He will do. And we cannot stand alone on assumptions and what we WANT to believe. And I include Matt 24:14 in that as well.

I am certain that if we cannot understand something that God may or may not do, nor why He may or may not do it, our minds are limited and our reasoning cannot fathom a lot of what is reality anyway. Who are we, the clay, to talk to the Potter, God, and tell Him what we think He should do?

[Digging4Truth]

What was meant by "every nation" is also easier to understand when you understand that the "end" was that he was speaking of.

The "end" was the end God was going to put to the old system of sacrifice based temple worship.

What was being said is that the news that the Messiah had come would need to be noised abroad among all the nations where Jews were before God was going to bring an end to that sacrifice/temple worship era.

[Sister]

So was Paul laying when he said that every creature under heaven had heard the gospel? According to your thesis.. he meant only the KNOWN WORLD and yet in the scriptures after he makes this statement we find people who had NOT YET heard "if there be any Holy Ghost"