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07-28-2007, 10:00 AM
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Unvaxxed Pureblood too
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Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 40,356
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CC1
Coonskinner,
Surely you realize and will acknowledge that you are the exception to the rule. Anecdotaly from posts on AFF and it's predecessors along with my personal interaction with UPC /OP folks shows that the vast majority have never heard of the so called PCI position ever existing in the UPC ranks.
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CC1, where can someone acquire the statistics of your pole?
Quote:
Originally Posted by CC1
I graduated with a theology degree from a UPC Bible College and never heard one word about this.
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In some districts it's required reading for new ministers to read "United We Stand" and 21st Century Pentecostals" both books outline the merger pretty well. I have also read articles in the Forward, and in the Pentecostal Herald speaking of the mergers. Maybe when your teacher was teaching on the subject of the merger you were out riding your Honda Z50?
Quote:
Originally Posted by CC1
I am sure there are exceptions such as yours where it was discussed by mentor pastors to young men in ministry but the knowledge was and still is not widely dissemenated in the UPC.
I would be willing to bet you that over 90% of UPC folks don't have a clue about this.
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I beg to differ with that my Brother, it's in the UPCI literature and there books from their Publishing House.
In Jesus name
Brother Benincasa
www.OnTimeJournal.com
__________________
"all experience hath shewn, that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed."
~Declaration of Independence
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07-28-2007, 10:01 AM
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Registered Member
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Join Date: Feb 2007
Posts: 7,616
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Evang.Benincasa
ATTENTION: SISTER BARBARA, DID I IN ANY OF MY POSTS SAY THAT PEOPLE SHOULD NOT READ FUDGE'S BOOK?
In Jesus name
Brother Benincasa
www.OnTimeJournal.com |
Attention Bro. Beni...did I say YOU did?!
I wrote "stated by OTHERS..."
Not you, sir...have a good day...need to run...
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07-28-2007, 10:03 AM
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Unvaxxed Pureblood too
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Join Date: May 2007
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Coonskinner
The idea that Fudge exposed some dark secret is ludicrous.
As a young man growing up in Oklahoma, my pastor talked with me at length about the PCI brethren and the difference in their doctrine.
It isn't the history Fudge wrote that I object to; it is the blatant bias and agenda to denigrate that is evident from the vile, slanderous, and patently untrue title of his book.
I also read the anecdotes in the book selected to make us look like a bunch of ignorant bumpkins without a clue.
His book could have been a lot better and much more well received if he could have resisted the temptation to take cheap shots from behind his cloak of scholarship and his little Anglican robe.
But alas, apostates trying to bury the knife in their mother's back is nothing new.
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Looks like I'm not alone in what I was seeing in the Fudge book.
In Jesus name
Brother Benincasa
www.OnTimeJournal.com
__________________
"all experience hath shewn, that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed."
~Declaration of Independence
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07-28-2007, 10:04 AM
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Unvaxxed Pureblood too
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Join Date: May 2007
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Barb
Attention Bro. Beni...did I say YOU did?!
I wrote "stated by OTHERS..."
Not you, sir...have a good day...need to run...
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Thank you for you kindness in your correction. Have a blessed day. 
In Jesus name
Brother Benincasa
www.OnTimeJournal.com
__________________
"all experience hath shewn, that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed."
~Declaration of Independence
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07-28-2007, 10:08 AM
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Non-Resident Redneck
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Join Date: Feb 2007
Posts: 3,523
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Evang.Benincasa
CC1, where can someone acquire the statistics of your pole?
In some districts it's required reading for new ministers to read "United We Stand" and 21st Century Pentecostals" both books outline the merger pretty well. I have also read articles in the Forward, and in the Pentecostal Herald speaking of the mergers. Maybe when your teacher was teaching on the subject of the merger you were out riding your Honda Z50?
I beg to differ with that my Brother, it's in the UPCI literature and there books from their Publishing House.
In Jesus name
Brother Benincasa
www.OnTimeJournal.com |
The history of the merger is spelled out in detail in a book called United We Stand, which is required reading for every minister who receives his local license in the UPC.
I honestly don't understand the angst over this whole issue.
I don't consider it any secret, and would gladly answer questions about the two groups tha formed the UPC if i were asked by any of the folks I pastor, but why on earth would I spend valuable pulpit time regaling them with tales from 60 years ago about an organization, now defunct, that doesn't believe what I believe?
There is no "cover up" here...
Just a story that doesn't have a lot of relevance for us today, particularly if we are of the so-called PAJC doctrinal persuasion.
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07-28-2007, 10:17 AM
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Administrator
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Join Date: Feb 2007
Posts: 16,840
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Evang.Benincasa
CC1, where can someone acquire the statistics of your pole?
In some districts it's required reading for new ministers to read "United We Stand" and 21st Century Pentecostals" both books outline the merger pretty well. I have also read articles in the Forward, and in the Pentecostal Herald speaking of the mergers. Maybe when your teacher was teaching on the subject of the merger you were out riding your Honda Z50?
I beg to differ with that my Brother, it's in the UPCI literature and there books from their Publishing House.
In Jesus name
Brother Benincasa
www.OnTimeJournal.com |
You should try actually responding to what I wrote. I never said there was a poll. I said anecdotally and in my personal experience.
I have read United We Stand about 30 years ago. Of course UPC books have talked about the merger of the two orgs. What I don't recall being covered is the different doctrinal positions involved. If it was then it was not done in an in depth way as I believe I would recall.
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07-28-2007, 10:24 AM
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Administrator
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Join Date: Feb 2007
Posts: 16,840
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Coonskinner
The history of the merger is spelled out in detail in a book called United We Stand, which is required reading for every minister who receives his local license in the UPC.
I honestly don't understand the angst over this whole issue.
I don't consider it any secret, and would gladly answer questions about the two groups tha formed the UPC if i were asked by any of the folks I pastor, but why on earth would I spend valuable pulpit time regaling them with tales from 60 years ago about an organization, now defunct, that doesn't believe what I believe?
There is no "cover up" here...
Just a story that doesn't have a lot of relevance for us today, particularly if we are of the so-called PAJC doctrinal persuasion.
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I don't think anyone is suggesting that the PCI / PAJC doctrinal positions and the merger be the topic of anybody's Sunday sermons! (and you well know that).
What I am saying is that institutionally what we refer to on here as the PCI position is the crazy aunt in the basement for the UPC. Forget laypersons for a moment and lets just talk about ministers, historical books, etc.
Are you prepared to say that any UPC publication dealing with the history of the org. has dealt with those doctrinal differences in any substantial way?
Have you read any UPC book that details the doctrinal position of the first GS of the UPC and some of theother leaders at the time?
Perhaps these things are covered in Bible Colleges now but in my day UPC Bible Colleges only taught the company line. Any deviation from the current status quo was ignored as if it never existed.
As you know I have no problem with the UPC over time codifying it's PAJC position as the offiical one. I believe the two views were incompatibable from a PAJC view standpoint.
I believe the PCIers were naive and not wise to ever think that merger could last. They were lulled by the doctrinal tolerance of the day expressed by first generation OP's who were not so removed from their trinitarian roots that they did not have the view of today's OP's that everybody else is going to hell.
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07-28-2007, 11:07 AM
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Unvaxxed Pureblood too
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Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 40,356
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CC1
You should try actually responding to what I wrote. I never said there was a poll. I said anecdotally and in my personal experience.
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I did respond to you're post. In short you said that no one had a clue about the merger (PCI) and I wanted to know if that could be statistically proven.
I am also answering your post in view of what I have already posted. I ask for people on both sides to read the information in Fudge's book with a closer eye as to look at the agenda in which it was written. Put the Fudge book under the light of research. That's all I'm saying. Sorry that you felt I was going out of my way to misrepresent you.
Quote:
Originally Posted by CC1
I have read United We Stand about 30 years ago. Of course UPC books have talked about the merger of the two orgs. What I don't recall being covered is the different doctrinal positions involved. If it was then it was not done in an in depth way as I believe I would recall.
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30 years, huh, well, I guess you need to check the book out of the library again.
In Jesus name
Brother Benincasa
www.OnTimeJournal.com
__________________
"all experience hath shewn, that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed."
~Declaration of Independence
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07-28-2007, 11:21 AM
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Unvaxxed Pureblood too
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Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 40,356
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United We Stand Page 21, speaks of how the Assemblies of gods were getting upset how some of the Brothers were baptizing in Jesus Name. There was an unwritten mild statement that they would leave baptism modes up to the individual preacher, and that they shouldn't argue over the issue.
United We Stand, page 120 PCI stand on baptism is discussed.
United We Stand, page 121 UPC stand on baptism is discussed.
United We Stand, page 98, Howard Goss' stand on baptism.
These books are not hid from the constiuancy of the United Pentecostal Church International. CC1 read the book 30 years ago? Listen Brothers and Sisters the research is out there and the best place to learn about any group is within that group. Thomas Fudge didn't go to the Vatican to learn about us he went to attics, and sheds of One-God preachers, and the library of Hazelwood. I'm just saying that since the Fudge book came out everyone who had been shouting it's praises should of been looking deeper behind its words.
In Jesus Name
Brother Benincasa
www.OnTimeJournal.com
__________________
"all experience hath shewn, that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed."
~Declaration of Independence
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07-28-2007, 11:25 AM
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Guest
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Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: In a cold dark cave.....
Posts: 4,624
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Evang.Benincasa
United We Stand Page 21, speaks of how the Assemblies of gods were getting upset how some of the Brothers were baptizing in Jesus Name. There was an unwritten mild statement that they would leave baptism modes up to the individual preacher, and that they shouldn't argue over the issue.
United We Stand, page 120 PCI stand on baptism is discussed.
United We Stand, page 121 UPC stand on baptism is discussed.
United We Stand, page 98, Howard Goss' stand on baptism.
These books are not hid from the constiuancy of the United Pentecostal Church International. CC1 read the book 30 years ago? Listen Brothers and Sisters the research is out there and the best place to learn about any group is within that group. Thomas Fudge didn't go to the Vatican to learn about us he went to attics, and sheds of One-God preachers, and the library of Hazelwood. I'm just saying that since the Fudge book came out everyone who had been shouting it's praises should of been looking deeper behind its words.
In Jesus Name
Brother Benincasa
www.OnTimeJournal.com |
It has been a while since I did my required reading. They used to require a stong PCI book- "The Pentecostal Home Study Course"
It disappeared completely.
I don't think it is still for sale.
I agree many don't know or have a clue what PCI/PAJC or one-stepper and three-stepper means.
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I am not a member here -Do not PM me please?
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