Ancient Monarchians and Trinitarians

Originally Posted by Hesetmefree238

To the victors belong the spoils of war. Since the Trinitarians eventually
ruled the day (climaxing with the council of Nicea), all of the modalist writers
works were destroyed. This is very sad. I would love to read their perspective
on things, but instead all we are left with for the most part are the writings
of their trinitarian opponents.

Did the gates of hell over power the church? Can you provide any writings that were from the Oneness church writings prior to 325 AD? Better yet, where was the Oneness church before it emerged out of the AOG in 1916?

[Hesetmefree238]

Originally Posted by Believer

Did the gates of hell over power the church? Can you prove any writings that were Oneness church writings prior to 325 AD?

No the gates of hell did not over power the church, but the Bible does say
that there would be a great falling away in 2 Thessalonians.
How about the Bible? I believe Paul had a oneness concept of the
Godhead. Ignatius was one of the early church fathers. His writings seemed
to have a oneness tone to them. We really don't read of any writers who
had a trinitarian tone to them until Justin Matyr came along and even then
the trinitarian concepts were very vague and just beginning to spring forth.

Originally Posted by Hesetmefree238

No the gates of hell did not over power the church, but the Bible does say
that there would be a great falling away in 2 Thessalonians.
How about the Bible? I believe Paul had a oneness concept of the
Godhead. Ignatius was one of the early church fathers. His writings seemed
to have a oneness tone to them. We really don't read of any writers who
had a trinitarian tone to them until Justin Matyr came along and even then
the trinitarian concepts were very vague and just beginning to spring forth.

Ignatius: Jesus Christ, who was with the Father before the beginning of time, and in the end revealed...He, being begotten by the Father before the beginning of time, was God the Word, the only-begotton Son, and remains the same forever. (Ignatius, letter to the Magnesians, 6, in ANF, vol 1)

Oneness do not believe that the Son was with the Father before time began, Ignatius did as well as all the other Early church Fathers

[Hesetmefree238]

Originally Posted by Believer

Ignatius: Jesus Christ, who was with the Father before the beginning of time, and in the end revealed...He, being begotten by the Father before the beginning of time, was God the Word, the only-begotton Son, and remains the same forever. (Ignatius, letter to the Magnesians, 6, in ANF, vol 1)

Oneness do not believe that the Son was with the Father before time began, Ignatius did as well as all the other Early church Fathers

In oneness theology God existed throughout eternity as one being, not two,
and not three. The Bible says that Jesus was the begotten Son. As a man,
Jesus was begotten and born in Bethlehem. As God he has existed throughout
eternity.
Jesus existed with the Father as the eternal Word, which is an inseperable
part of God, not as a second person who existed with the Father throughout
eternity. Before the birth of Christ, the Son existed only in the mind of God and in the foreknowledge of God. When Christ was born the incarnation took
place. God came to us in the form of a man. Not God the Son incarnating into
a man, but Yahweh God, our everlasting Father. As Isaiah 9:6 says"Unto us a
child is born (begotten), unto us a Son is given, ...... and His name shall be
called Wonderful, Counselor, The Mighty God, THE EVERLASTING FATHER,
The Prince of Peace.
As for the writing of those whom we call the Early Church Fathers, it does
not really matter what they say, for their writings are not scripture or
divinely inspired. We also know they have been tampered with throughout
the centuries. Even Trinitarian theologians will acknowledge such.
As for Ignatius, it is thought by most theologians that his writings had a
modalist tone to them. He most certainly wrote in terms that Trinitarian
writers such as Tertullian would be most uncomfortable with.
Ignatius Epistle to the Ephesians 7. "There is one Physician who is
possessed both of flesh and spirit; both made and not made; Go existing in
flesh; true life in death; both of Mary and of God; first passible and then
impassible - even Jesus Christ our Lord. Tertullian later ridiculed the modalists
for this very teaching.

[mizpeh]

Originally Posted by Believer

Ignatius: Jesus Christ, who was with the Father before the beginning of time, and in the end revealed...He, being begotten by the Father before the beginning of time, was God the Word, the only-begotton Son, and remains the same forever. (Ignatius, letter to the Magnesians, 6, in ANF, vol 1)

Oneness do not believe that the Son was with the Father before time began, Ignatius did as well as all the other Early church Fathers

You've taken Ignatius out of context. I have no problem as a Oneness believer with what he said, unless he means the Son is ETERNALLY begotten.

The Son was in the plan of the Father before time and since God isn't subject to time constraints, the future is real to God. He can speak about things that will happen as though they already happened.

Originally Posted by BobDylan

Which concept of the Godhead was older? Who were the first writing monarchian teachers, and who were the first writing trinitarian teachers? What does this say for the veracity of modern concepts on the Godhead?

Monarchianism is a Christian heretical doctrine of the 2nd and 3rd centuries opposed to the orthodox doctrine of the Trinity; it strongly maintained the essential unity of the Deity and was intended to reinforce monotheism in Christianity. Monarchians were divided into two groups, the Adoptionists, or Dynamic Monarchians, and the Patripassians, or Modalistic Monarchians.

http://mb-soft.com/believe/txn/monarchi.htm

[Hesetmefree238]

Originally Posted by Believer

Monarchianism is a Christian heretical doctrine of the 2nd and 3rd centuries opposed to the orthodox doctrine of the Trinity; it strongly maintained the essential unity of the Deity and was intended to reinforce monotheism in Christianity. Monarchians were divided into two groups, the Adoptionists, or Dynamic Monarchians, and the Patripassians, or Modalistic Monarchians.

http://mb-soft.com/believe/txn/monarchi.htm

Orthodox according to who, the Roman Catholic Church or the Council of
Nicea? It is certainly not orthodox according the the Bible, the only writings that really matter in the big scheme of things.
Again, trinitarianism makes up the majority of the church world, so since they are the majority they have the power to define the rules. But, the majority is not always right, and I am not one to condemn or judge trinitarianism it
simply is not a Biblical concept.

Originally Posted by Hesetmefree238

Orthodox according to who, the Roman Catholic Church or the Council of
Nicea? It is certainly not orthodox according the the Bible, the only writings that really matter in the big scheme of things.
Again, trinitarianism makes up the majority of the church world, so since they are the majority they have the power to define the rules. But, the majority is not always right, and I am not one to condemn or judge trinitarianism it
simply is not a Biblical concept.

If the Trinity Church is not Biblical then where was God's true Church in history?

[mizpeh]

Originally Posted by Believer

If the Trinity Church is not Biblical then where was God's true Church in history?

It's hidden d/t persecution.

[SDG]

Originally Posted by mizpeh

It's hidden d/t persecution.

The "remnant every generation theory"... plausible ... yet wrought w/ heretics intertwined.