Universal Salvation

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by crakjak

If you believe in endless torment. Please, show how billions of years of unbearable torment equals "just recompense" for a short life of sin. Take in to account that the condemned was born by no fault of his own, into a fallen world, with a highly developed deciever to decieve. Then take into account that Paul the apostle to the Gentiles never once threatens sinners with clarity of any threat of "endless" torment.

See ya, later.

What about those who believe in annihilation of the wicked? Not saying I do, since I do not lean that way.

[ManOfWord]

Originally Posted by mfblume

What about those who believe in annihilation of the wicked?

I could buy into the ahhihilation doctrine before I could UR. UR is not a new doctrine. It has been around for a LONG time. It makes a cycle every so many years and there are people who buy into it and try to propagate it. So far, it has not taken very much of a hold on any generation.

If UR is true, then taken to it's logical extreme, the preaching of salvation and the obedience to salvation is a complete waste of time. Why not just enjoy the pleasures of sin for a season? (my entire life)

What could be wrong with total indulgence if one tries not to let anyone else get hurt in the process?

I've looked at this doctrine and it seems to have no lure for anyone except those who desire to live a life of licentiousness.

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by ManOfWord

I could buy into the ahhihilation doctrine before I could UR. UR is not a new doctrine. It has been around for a LONG time. It makes a cycle every so many years and there are people who buy into it and try to propagate it. So far, it has not taken very much of a hold on any generation.

If UR is true, then taken to it's logical extreme, the preaching of salvation and the obedience to salvation is a complete waste of time. Why not just enjoy the pleasures of sin for a season? (my entire life)

What could be wrong with total indulgence if one tries not to let anyone else get hurt in the process?

I've looked at this doctrine and it seems to have no lure for anyone except those who desire to live a life of licentiousness.

Wise words. The point is that it is pointless for us NOW, if it is true. Even if there WILL be an age ahead that redeems everyone ever lost, it is irrelevant to us today since we are still to deny the flesh and learn to be Spirit led, etc. So I deem the issue to be futile, since the bible clearly does not plainly state things about it, if it was true, compared to what the bible DOES speak about plainly.

[Michael The Disciple]

There is no endless torment. There will be a season of suffering for all the wicked whether it be long or short. But do not err beloved the wages of sin is death.

21: What fruit had ye then in those things whereof ye are now ashamed? for the end of those things is death.
22: But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life.
23: For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord. Rom. 6:21-23

The end of those things is death? I thought all men die? Indeed we all do die. But the death Paul speaks of here is a death that comes because of a sinful life.

The same thing is taught here:

12: Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh.
13: For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live. Rom. 8:12-13

But Paul still died didnt he? If this is merely talking about temporal life and death we have a problem. Paul said if you live after the flesh you will die. Did he live after the flesh? Absolutely not! Yet he died when this writing says he should have lived.

Those who mortify the deeds of the body will live. Yet every one since Jesus Christ has died. Did not even one person mortify the deeds of the body?

We have to see the doctrine Paul taught (same as Yeshua) was with eternity in focus. Those who walk in the flesh WILL DIE. Not just the death that ALL including the saints die.

They will die for eternity. The righteous will live the wicked will die. For eternity.

[Steve Epley]

Frank J. Ewart got involved with this teaching for a season and destroyed his church and reputation but finally renounced it. Also Ted Fitch believed this false doctrine.

[crakjak]

Originally Posted by ManOfWord

I could buy into the ahhihilation doctrine before I could UR. UR is not a new doctrine. It has been around for a LONG time. It makes a cycle every so many years and there are people who buy into it and try to propagate it. So far, it has not taken very much of a hold on any generation.

If UR is true, then taken to it's logical extreme, the preaching of salvation and the obedience to salvation is a complete waste of time. Why not just enjoy the pleasures of sin for a season? (my entire life)

What could be wrong with total indulgence if one tries not to let anyone else get hurt in the process?

I've looked at this doctrine and it seems to have no lure for anyone except those who desire to live a life of licentiousness.

With all due respect MOW, I don't believed you have looked at UR, your statements here are very early sound bites of those that are only rationalizing the surface arguments.

[crakjak]

Originally Posted by mfblume

What about those who believe in annihilation of the wicked? Not saying I do, since I do not lean that way.

Annihilation is much more merciful and would be the human way out, as if God is saying, "I can't fix what what I created, I have been defeated by Satan and by the all powerful will of man, so I"ll just kill them all."

Malachi 3:3, declares that He is the refiners fire and the launderers soap.

[crakjak]

Originally Posted by Steve Epley

Frank J. Ewart got involved with this teaching for a season and destroyed his church and reputation but finally renounced it. Also Ted Fitch believed this false doctrine.

Such statements are hearsay, that do not include the whole context that each of these men found themselves in, and do not add one thing to the discussion. These words have no bearing whatsoever on UR.

[Michael The Disciple]

Originally Posted by crakjak

Annihilation is much more merciful and would be the human way out, as if God is saying, "I can't fix what what I created, I have been defeated by Satan and by the all powerful will of man, so I"ll just kill them all."

Malachi 3:3, declares that He is the refiners fire and the launderers soap.

You could not be more wrong. It is exactly the opposite. When God destroys the wicked in the lake of fire he is fulfilling the very thing he designed them for.

Romans 9:17-23

17: For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.
18: Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.
19: Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?
20: Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?
21: Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?
22: What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:
23: And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,

So mans will is not triumphing over the glorious will of YAH. Those who are fitted for destruction unto destruction they shall go.

[crakjak]

Originally Posted by mfblume

Wise words. The point is that it is pointless for us NOW, if it is true. Even if there WILL be an age ahead that redeems everyone ever lost, it is irrelevant to us today since we are still to deny the flesh and learn to be Spirit led, etc. So I deem the issue to be futile, since the bible clearly does not plainly state things about it, if it was true, compared to what the bible DOES speak about plainly.

To the contrary, the doctrine of endless torment has turned multitudes from God, because by it very nature blasphemes the character of our Heavenly Father. Let's start with the simplicity of (1 Cor. 13.8) LOVE NEVER FAILS,

"The teaching of endless torment, negatively effects the preaching of the gospel, "eternal" hell...

Maligns God's character before the world.
Contradicts His unending and unfailing love for all people.
Makes our worship stem from fear instead of true affection.
Denies His unlimited power to accomplish His will.
Makes man's will greater than God's will.
Infinitely minimizes Jesus' triumph over Satan.
Denies Jesus fully accomplished His mission on earth.
Negates the most glorious promises in the Bible.
Ignores the testimony of the early church.
Rob us of peace and joy.
AFFECTS WHAT WE BECOME; LIKE FATHER--LIKE SON.
Hinders world evangelism.

Hell is a horrifying thought. Millions have been terrorized by it. Some have even killed their children to spare them such a fate. If we would truly grasp the horror of it, we would go insane. Our every waking moment would have to be spent snatching whoever we can out of the fire or nothing but constant guilt would torment us. Can you imagine the horror of suffering "forever"? What is a billion years? It is but a second in eternity. Who could possibly imagine such horror? What if you or one of your loved ones should go there? Does this thought affect how you feel about God?

This theme has gripped my heart as it afflicts millions of people and dishonors God before the world. After years of wrestling with this topic, studying the Bible, and reading the works of others, I have found that hell is a judgment given from the disciplinary hand of a loving Father. Though severe, it serves a good and remedial purpose."

One of our greatest presidents agreed. In Abraham Lincoln the Christian, William Johnson, stated:

Abraham Lincoln did not nor could not believe in the endless punishment of anyone of the human race. He understood punishment for sin to be a Bible doctrine; that the punishment was parental in its object, aim and design, and intended for the good of the offender; hence it must cease when justice is satisfied. All that was lost by the transgression of Adam was made good by the atonement.

Quoted for "Hope Beyond Hell" by Gerry Beauchemin