Universal Salvation

[Scott Hutchinson]

The Bible tells us if one doesn't believe In Jesus Christ ,they will perish ,John 3:16 ,now if someone dies lost and is in a perishing state how can they evenutally join the redeemed? The wages of sin is death.

[Michael The Disciple]

Originally Posted by Scott Hutchinson

The Bible tells us if one doesn't believe In Jesus Christ ,they will perish ,John 3:16 ,now if someone dies lost and is in a perishing state how can they evenutally join the redeemed? The wages of sin is death.

That is why I believe in the doctrine of the DEATH of the wicked in the Lake of Fire. It is expressly what Yeshua taught.

28: And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell. Matt. 10:28

This fulfills what the Old Testament presents as the wages of sin.

4: Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die. Ezekiel 18:4

Sinful souls DIE in Gehenna. They do not inherit immortality. It (immortality) is only bestowed on those who follow the will of the Father.

6: Who will render to every man according to his deeds:
7: To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life: Rom. 2:6-7

Universal salvation is far from truth. Just as immortality in Hell is.

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by crakjak

Bro. Blume,
You must do justice to the grammatical evidence that the text itself presents. Paul uses parallel structure to his presentation of these verses:Romans 5:18, "Therefore just as one man's trespass led to condemnation for all, so one man's act of righteousness leads to justification and life for all." Then again in Romans 11:32, "For God has imprisoned all in disobedience so that he be merciful to all" and in ICor. 15:22 "for as all die in Adam, so all will be made alive in Christ."

In each of the above texts, we encounter a contrast between two universal statements, and in each case the first "all" determines the scope of the second.

In Roman 5:18: Paul obviously has in mind every descendant of Adam who stands under the judgment of condemnation.

Let us keep reading after verse 18. There is a very good reason why Paul makes a transition and uses the word MANY instead of ALL. Many is not all. The idea is there is a comparison with Adam's and Jesus' effects upon mankind. And why woudl he use the terms ALL and then MANY to close it off? It sounds to me like there is a good reason for the very fact that people might think it could imply universal salvation, when the only thing Paul is actually trying to say is that the GIST of the thought of Adam affecting people and Jesus affecting people is similar, and so he really calrifies that when he uses the term MANY.

Notice that indeed ADAM affected ALL people without their choice. And the way I believe it is that Christ died for all people but it is only efficacious to those who accept it consciously and choose to serve God, which would make it MANY. So, while on the one hand, Adam is said to have affected ALL and Christ is said to have affected all, while it makes more sense that Christ be said to affect only MANY, on the other hand, Adam is lastly said to have affected MANY which seems more properly understood as ALL, and Christ is said to have affected MANY. It seems you may appear to have verse 18 on your side, but verse 19 is on my side.

Why did Paul use the term "MANY" instead of all?

Rom 5:18 KJV Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.

Rom 5:19 KJV For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

While some concentrate on the ALL in verse 18, others have just as much right to point out the MANY in verse 19.

In Romans 11:32: Paul when insists that God is merciful to all, he has in mind every human being whom God has "shut up" to, or has "imprisoned" in disobedience.

But he does not have the whole world in mind in verse 15. I really think we cannot be so wooden in all the use of these terms.

Finally, when he asserts in ICor. 15:22 that "all will be made alive in Christ," he has in mind everyone who has died in Adam.

Let us keep reading.

1Co 15:22 KJV For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
1Co 15:23 KJV But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

The stipulation is made to be THOSE WHO ARE CHRIST'S, and not simply everyone. This is found again in 2 Cor 5.

2Co 5:17-20 KJV Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new. (18) And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation; (19) To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation. (20) Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech you by us: we pray you in Christ's stead, be ye reconciled to God.

Before we read how the world is reconciled to God, we read "IF ANY MAN BE IN CHRIST". A Stipulation. And then we read something that would not be mentioned if EVERYONE is to be reconciled anyway, when Paul said "Be ye reconciled to God." He is telling people it is in their hands to deal with. He woudl not have said that if it was not so.

The difference is that the parallel structure determines the scope of the "all".

But the entire context contains things that make it a stipulation and condition that is involved. And MANY is mentioned as well in Romans 5 for a good reason.

[crakjak]

Rom 5:19 KJV For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

To get the full sense of Paul's argument, we need to study the whole context, especially verses 12 thru 21. To make his point very clear he closes with: "Where sin abounded, grace abounded much more" (Romans 5:20).

How Brother Mike, can you claim Jesus gained back LESS than Adam lost? No my friend, it is "much more".

The traditional view reduces the "many" (the same "many" that were condemned) in Christ to mean the "few".

[crakjak]

Originally Posted by Scott Hutchinson

The Bible tells us if one doesn't believe In Jesus Christ ,they will perish ,John 3:16 ,now if someone dies lost and is in a perishing state how can they evenutally join the redeemed? The wages of sin is death.

And what wage did Jesus pay for the sins of the whole world? Death?
Do you believe in double jeopardy?

[crakjak]

Originally Posted by Michael The Disciple

....is far from truth. Just as immortality in Hell is.

At least you don't embrace "endless torture"!

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by crakjak

Rom 5:19 KJV For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

To get the full sense of Paul's argument, we need to study the whole context, especially verses 12 thru 21. To make his point very clear he closes with: "Where sin abounded, grace abounded much more" (Romans 5:20).

How Brother Mike, can you claim Jesus gained back LESS than Adam lost? No my friend, it is "much more".

It is not that Jesus GAINED MORE than Adam lost, at all. That is not the issue. The issue is that Christ's WORK was GREATER than Adam's work, as though we cannot say Christ perfectly balanced Adam's destruction with construction. Christ's work was not equal in positive value to the degree of negative value in Adam's work. There is a greater value in Christ's work in four specific issues that are totally apart from any thought of whether CHRIST GAINED MORE than Adam lost. It's not even a question of whether or not Christ gained more than Adam lost. It's a question of whose influences brought about a GREATER DEGREE OF ACCOMPLISHMENT.

It's hard to put in words. But it is like Adam work may be rendered influential to "7 points" out of 10 on a scale of accomplishment. Christ's comes to 10 out of 10. Nothing about who gained more is even an issue. It's whose work had MORE accomplished.

Read the archaic language in this sense, which makes it easier...

Rom 5:15 WNT But God's free gift immeasurably outweighs the transgression....

God's work outweighs Adam's work. It is not an issue of GAINING NUMBERS.

The traditional view reduces the "many" (the same "many" that were condemned) in Christ to mean the "few".

It is more deep than that contrast you make, I believe. And I think I can prove it.

The gist of the chapter is saying Christ's work is greater than Adam's in points explicitly specified by Paul.

Rom 5:15 KJV But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many.

Both Adam and Jesus, the last Adam, are considered equal in their work in the sense that their works are associated with SINGLE THINGS. ADAM committed one sin and no further ones. Christ did one work of the cross to convey the effects to all mankind. But the difference is that Adam's affects touched man through NATURAL means of regular heredity of man's generations. But Christ's was through supernatural means. Christ's work was through A GIFT OF GOD. So the manner of conveying the effects upon humanity IS DIFFERENT. Christ's manner is GREATER. THAT IS THE ONLY CONTRAST NOTED IN the first part of VERSE 15.

And then verse 15 ends with ANOTHER CONTRAST. Adam caused men to DIE and LOSE LIFE. But Christ's work outweighs that since it gives man life from death, but a life that IS FAR GREATER THAN the life Adam caused us to lose! We have a better life than what Adam caused us to lose in the fall.

Rom 5:16 KJV And not as it was by one that sinned, so is the gift: for the judgment was by one to condemnation, but the free gift is of many offences unto justification.

In verse 16 the greater value of Christ's work in outweighing Adam's damage is shown again, and it is NEVER anything that focuses on HOW MANY PEOPLE are saved as opposed to how many were lost due to Adam, as though everyone has to be saved for Christ's work to truly be greater. We find that ONE SIN/OFFENCE was committed by Adam, but Grace affects MANY OFFENCES. When it comes to the number of offences in either case, one offence in Adam is outweighed by many offences dealt with in all of us through Christ. We are not only justified from THE SINGLE OFFENCE OF ADAM'S, BUT ALL THE OFFENCES COMMITTED SINCE ADAM. That is how the work of Christ is deemed greater. ONE SORT Of offence was committed by Adam, but ALL SORTS OF OFFENCES are dealt with by Christ's work.

Verse 17 seems to elaborate on verse 15 some more.

Rom 5:17 KJV For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.)

Verse 15 said, "through the offence of one many be dead", and verse 17 said "by one offence, death reigned by one". Death is considered a KING in verse 17. Physical and spiritual death are noted. Revelation mentions that there are those who have no part in the first resurrection.

Verse 15 mentions God's grace and the gift by grace abounds to many. Verse 17 mentions "abundance of grace, and of the gift of righteousness". And the idea of RULERSHIP, as in the case of death ruling like a king, is mentioned in regards to ALL THE PEOPLE affected by Christ. ONE KING versus MILLIONS OF KINGS!

Again we see the greater value in Christ's work that is specifically noted to be something other than numbers of people saved.

The ALL men in verse 18 can only refer to the ALL IN ADAM and ALL IN CHRIST. It does not simply mean ALL MEN, period. Verse 18 merely says that Adam influenced those in his "race", and Christ influences those who are now in His new creation "race".

In summary, the idea you are proposing is incorrect when you say that Romans 5 is saying Adam affected everyone as a basis for us understanding that everyone must be going to be saved since Christ is said to have affected everyone. This is because the verses explicitly state the GREATER aspect of Christ's work in being:

1) (verse 15) THE MANNER OF conveying the influence of Christ is greater than the manner of conveying Adam's influence.

2) (verse 15 also) The LIFE Adam caused us to lose is LESS than the LIFE Christ gave to us when He recovered us.

3) (Verse 16) Adam's SINGLE OFFENCE is dealt with in Adam, but Christ's remedy dealt with that single sin and offence and EVERY OTHER OFFENCE EVER COMMITTED BY EVERYONE since then.

4) (Verse 17) One King is named, called "death", by Adam's hand, but Christ's work MAKES MILLIONS OF KINGS out of all the saints who are saved!

So Paul specifically noted HOW Christ's work was greater and never said anything about your focus of thought upon simply whether or not Christ affected everyone to be saved since Adam made everyone lost.

So when we leave those verses and get into the general thought in verses 18 and on, we leave the contrasts of how Christ's work is greater and simply read of how Adam and Christ did actions that affect all.

[crakjak]

Originally Posted by mfblume

It is not that Jesus GAINED MORE than Adam lost, at all. That is not the issue. The issue is that Christ's WORK was GREATER than Adam's work, as though we cannot say Christ perfectly balanced Adam's destruction with construction. Christ's work was not equal in positive value to the degree of negative value in Adam's work. There is a greater value in Christ's work in four specific issues that are totally apart from any thought of whether CHRIST GAINED MORE than Adam lost. It's not even a question of whether or not Christ gained more than Adam lost. It's a question of whose influences brought about a GREATER DEGREE OF ACCOMPLISHMENT.

It's hard to put in words. But it is like Adam work may be rendered influential to "7 points" out of 10 on a scale of accomplishment. Christ's comes to 10 out of 10. Nothing about who gained more is even an issue. It's whose work had MORE accomplished.

Read the archaic language in this sense, which makes it easier...



God's work outweighs Adam's work. It is not an issue of GAINING NUMBERS.



It is more deep than that contrast you make, I believe. And I think I can prove it.

The gist of the chapter is saying Christ's work is greater than Adam's in points explicitly specified by Paul.



Both Adam and Jesus, the last Adam, are considered equal in their work in the sense that their works are associated with SINGLE THINGS. ADAM committed one sin and no further ones. Christ did one work of the cross to convey the effects to all mankind. But the difference is that Adam's affects touched man through NATURAL means of regular heredity of man's generations. But Christ's was through supernatural means. Christ's work was through A GIFT OF GOD. So the manner of conveying the effects upon humanity IS DIFFERENT. Christ's manner is GREATER. THAT IS THE ONLY CONTRAST NOTED IN the first part of VERSE 15.

And then verse 15 ends with ANOTHER CONTRAST. Adam caused men to DIE and LOSE LIFE. But Christ's work outweighs that since it gives man life from death, but a life that IS FAR GREATER THAN the life Adam caused us to lose! We have a better life than what Adam caused us to lose in the fall.



In verse 16 the greater value of Christ's work in outweighing Adam's damage is shown again, and it is NEVER anything that focuses on HOW MANY PEOPLE are saved as opposed to how many were lost due to Adam, as though everyone has to be saved for Christ's work to truly be greater. We find that ONE SIN/OFFENCE was committed by Adam, but Grace affects MANY OFFENCES. When it comes to the number of offences in either case, one offence in Adam is outweighed by many offences dealt with in all of us through Christ. We are not only justified from THE SINGLE OFFENCE OF ADAM'S, BUT ALL THE OFFENCES COMMITTED SINCE ADAM. That is how the work of Christ is deemed greater. ONE SORT Of offence was committed by Adam, but ALL SORTS OF OFFENCES are dealt with by Christ's work.

Verse 17 seems to elaborate on verse 15 some more.



Verse 15 said, "through the offence of one many be dead", and verse 17 said "by one offence, death reigned by one". Death is considered a KING in verse 17. Physical and spiritual death are noted. Revelation mentions that there are those who have no part in the first resurrection.

Verse 15 mentions God's grace and the gift by grace abounds to many. Verse 17 mentions "abundance of grace, and of the gift of righteousness". And the idea of RULERSHIP, as in the case of death ruling like a king, is mentioned in regards to ALL THE PEOPLE affected by Christ. ONE KING versus MILLIONS OF KINGS!

Again we see the greater value in Christ's work that is specifically noted to be something other than numbers of people saved.

The ALL men in verse 18 can only refer to the ALL IN ADAM and ALL IN CHRIST. It does not simply mean ALL MEN, period. Verse 18 merely says that Adam influenced those in his "race", and Christ influences those who are now in His new creation "race".

In summary, the idea you are proposing is incorrect when you say that Romans 5 is saying Adam affected everyone as a basis for us understanding that everyone must be going to be saved since Christ is said to have affected everyone. This is because the verses explicitly state the GREATER aspect of Christ's work in being:

1) (verse 15) THE MANNER OF conveying the influence of Christ is greater than the manner of conveying Adam's influence.

2) (verse 15 also) The LIFE Adam caused us to lose is LESS than the LIFE Christ gave to us when He recovered us.

3) (Verse 16) Adam's SINGLE OFFENCE is dealt with in Adam, but Christ's remedy dealt with that single sin and offence and EVERY OTHER OFFENCE EVER COMMITTED BY EVERYONE since then.

4) (Verse 17) One King is named, called "death", by Adam's hand, but Christ's work MAKES MILLIONS OF KINGS out of all the saints who are saved!

So Paul specifically noted HOW Christ's work was greater and never said anything about your focus of thought upon simply whether or not Christ affected everyone to be saved since Adam made everyone lost.

So when we leave those verses and get into the general thought in verses 18 and on, we leave the contrasts of how Christ's work is greater and simply read of how Adam and Christ did actions that affect all.

Brother,
I fear you complicate a very simple matter, these verses are simple and straight forward.

Adam sinned and brought condemnation on the whole of mankind. The lamb slain from the foundation of the world, brought justification for the whole of mankind.

(Roman 5:18-19 WEY): "It follows then that just as the result of a single transgression is a condemnation which extends to the whole race, so also the result of a single decree of righteousness is a life-giving acquittal which extends to the whole race. For as through the disobedience of the one individual the mass of mankind were constituted sinners, so also through the obedience of the One the mass of mankind will be constituted righteous."

(Col.1:19-20) "It pleased the Father...and by Him to reconcile all things to Himself, by Him, whether things on earth or thing in heaven, having made peace through the blood of His cross."

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by crakjak

Brother,
I fear you complicate a very simple matter, these verses are simple and straight forward.

Actually, I do not think so. What I listed above is exactly what those verses have stated. The idea that Christ "gains more" than what Adam lost is impossible to consider at all since the verses explicitly state what they do in regards to what is the issue in the "MUCH MORE" of Christ's work.

Adam sinned and brought condemnation on the whole of mankind. The lamb slain from the foundation of the world, brought justification for the whole of mankind.

(Roman 5:18-19 WEY): "It follows then that just as the result of a single transgression is a condemnation which extends to the whole race, so also the result of a single decree of righteousness is a life-giving acquittal which extends to the whole race. For as through the disobedience of the one individual the mass of mankind were constituted sinners, so also through the obedience of the One the mass of mankind will be constituted righteous."

Extending something to the whole race is not the same as saving the whole reace.

Like I said, and will always say it, the bible does not plainly state universal salvation, when it could have. That ought to tell us everything.

[crakjak]

Originally Posted by mfblume

Actually, I do not think so. What I listed above is exactly what those verses have stated. The idea that Christ "gains more" than what Adam lost is impossible to consider at all since the verses explicitly state what they do in regards to what is the issue in the "MUCH MORE" of Christ's work.



Extending something to the whole race is not the same as saving the whole reace.

Like I said, and will always say it, the bible does not plainly state universal salvation, when it could have. That ought to tell us everything.

Sorry, I don't see the implications that you inject into these verses at all.

There are many more scriptures to explore, however your mind seems to be made up, I don't see much of a basis for exploring further at this time.

I can respect you as a brother in Christ w/o agreeing on every subject, so be blessed. Thanks for the exchange.