Ok, I understand that and also have no problem with that last statement. If you are going to be in the "club" abide by the by laws, that is fair.
There is much more to this, and everyone that actually lives on this planet knows it.
As the years have passed the little children have grown up to marry and have children, and their children have grown to marry and have children, and now the situation is that the generation that is now trying to deal with this mess had nothing to do with the makeup of the manual to begin with.
The UPC manual is often interpeted by those that remain in the UPC to read that they must exclude anyone that leaves, however now you are asking grandparents to exclude their grandchildren. Those that have "sinned" by leaving the UPC behind can now no longer preach in UPC meetings, and all UPC ministers that remain in the UPC can now no longer preach for them.
At some point we grandparents have come to realize that everyone that tries to change the manual becomes suspect of sin (just follow the posts of this thread and listen to the voices of accusation without merit or proof), and many are choosing to leave to provide for a future where families that have fasted, prayed, and preached together for decades are not estranged because of holding the manual up while casting our brethren away contrary to the Word of God.
These that are going to Tulsa are men of God and they are being spoken of as though they don't know that the sacrifice they are taking today (which will result in hateful spewing of accusations and much anguish) will not immediately have the results that they are hoping for. If we would be honest about it, the UPCI has lost way too many Godly men and women because of the foolish notion that has forced them to leave to effect any real change.
I preached in the early 70's in places where some churches survived but today I find that many of those efforts failed, in so much that the very buildings the services were held in are gone. Two places where I served as assistant pastor have entirely ceased to exist, so I know personally that this great gospel is a battlefield and in some cases our loved ones that have gone on to glory did so with broken hearts when they were no longer allowed to preach for others that they loved (because they had left the UPC) except they were allowed to preach the funeral.
So fine, this is a great fight of faith, but why do we have to devour each other when all they are doing is leaving the "club"? Why can't we allow a little light under the door for these that we weeped with, prayed with, ministered with, and in some cases have died with? Where is our love for one another in the way we are responding to one another in this?
My best friend from high school and one of the first souls to come to Jesus Christ through my ministry, that married my wife's sister, has not been in my home for over 25 years, and yet both of us are still full of the Holy Ghost, and both of us remember vividly the miracles that happened together in the early days. The loss of fellowship and friendship for such a long time was created by the goofy manual requirements that are offensive and in great need of being modified, yet those that have walked in those troubled waters have been greatly attacked and in many cases chased away as though the manual was the bible and they were agents of Satan.
I'm not offended at anyone, I love my brethren, both in and out of the UPC, but I am wondering out loud if we are so quick to condemn the motives of men of such high degree that have chosen to do something outside of our control, I wonder, if the UPCI, as it stands today, will repent of the slanderous ways (be honest, you know what I am talking about) and walk in love, or if instead God will move His flagship blessings on to others that hold the Word of God higher than the words of men. I hope for repentance, but I see judgment coming if we don't start valuing our brethren.
I'm new here, you don't know me, and there is a lot of freedom in being able to just open up your heart and speak without name and face recognition, but if you can hear what I am saying, please pray for us all to walk in love and contend for the unity of the faith.
The motives of the men are clear, and they aren't godly. What they want to do is eventually put an official stamp of approval on their divisive behavior they already exhibited in years gone by.
Quote:
Originally Posted by AnotherTrave
There is much more to this, and everyone that actually lives on this planet knows it.
As the years have passed the little children have grown up to marry and have children, and their children have grown to marry and have children, and now the situation is that the generation that is now trying to deal with this mess had nothing to do with the makeup of the manual to begin with.
The UPC manual is often interpeted by those that remain in the UPC to read that they must exclude anyone that leaves, however now you are asking grandparents to exclude their grandchildren. Those that have "sinned" by leaving the UPC behind can now no longer preach in UPC meetings, and all UPC ministers that remain in the UPC can now no longer preach for them.
At some point we grandparents have come to realize that everyone that tries to change the manual becomes suspect of sin (just follow the posts of this thread and listen to the voices of accusation without merit or proof), and many are choosing to leave to provide for a future where families that have fasted, prayed, and preached together for decades are not estranged because of holding the manual up while casting our brethren away contrary to the Word of God.
These that are going to Tulsa are men of God and they are being spoken of as though they don't know that the sacrifice they are taking today (which will result in hateful spewing of accusations and much anguish) will not immediately have the results that they are hoping for. If we would be honest about it, the UPCI has lost way too many Godly men and women because of the foolish notion that has forced them to leave to effect any real change.
I preached in the early 70's in places where some churches survived but today I find that many of those efforts failed, in so much that the very buildings the services were held in are gone. Two places where I served as assistant pastor have entirely ceased to exist, so I know personally that this great gospel is a battlefield and in some cases our loved ones that have gone on to glory did so with broken hearts when they were no longer allowed to preach for others that they loved (because they had left the UPC) except they were allowed to preach the funeral.
So fine, this is a great fight of faith, but why do we have to devour each other when all they are doing is leaving the "club"? Why can't we allow a little light under the door for these that we weeped with, prayed with, ministered with, and in some cases have died with? Where is our love for one another in the way we are responding to one another in this?
My best friend from high school and one of the first souls to come to Jesus Christ through my ministry, that married my wife's sister, has not been in my home for over 25 years, and yet both of us are still full of the Holy Ghost, and both of us remember vividly the miracles that happened together in the early days. The loss of fellowship and friendship for such a long time was created by the goofy manual requirements that are offensive and in great need of being modified, yet those that have walked in those troubled waters have been greatly attacked and in many cases chased away as though the manual was the bible and they were agents of Satan.
I'm not offended at anyone, I love my brethren, both in and out of the UPC, but I am wondering out loud if we are so quick to condemn the motives of men of such high degree that have chosen to do something outside of our control, I wonder, if the UPCI, as it stands today, will repent of the slanderous ways (be honest, you know what I am talking about) and walk in love, or if instead God will move His flagship blessings on to others that hold the Word of God higher than the words of men. I hope for repentance, but I see judgment coming if we don't start valuing our brethren.
I'm new here, you don't know me, and there is a lot of freedom in being able to just open up your heart and speak without name and face recognition, but if you can hear what I am saying, please pray for us all to walk in love and contend for the unity of the faith.
__________________
A religious spirit allows people to tolerate hatred and anger under the guise of passion and holiness. Bill Johnson
Legalism has no pity on people. Legalism makes my opinion your burden, makes opinion your boundary, makes my opinion your obligation-Lucado
Some get spiritual because they see the light. Others because they feel the heat.Ray Wylie Hubbard
Definition of legalism- Damned if you do. Damned if you don't. TV
There is much more to this, and everyone that actually lives on this planet knows it.
As the years have passed the little children have grown up to marry and have children, and their children have grown to marry and have children, and now the situation is that the generation that is now trying to deal with this mess had nothing to do with the makeup of the manual to begin with.
The UPC manual is often interpeted by those that remain in the UPC to read that they must exclude anyone that leaves, however now you are asking grandparents to exclude their grandchildren. Those that have "sinned" by leaving the UPC behind can now no longer preach in UPC meetings, and all UPC ministers that remain in the UPC can now no longer preach for them.
At some point we grandparents have come to realize that everyone that tries to change the manual becomes suspect of sin (just follow the posts of this thread and listen to the voices of accusation without merit or proof), and many are choosing to leave to provide for a future where families that have fasted, prayed, and preached together for decades are not estranged because of holding the manual up while casting our brethren away contrary to the Word of God.
These that are going to Tulsa are men of God and they are being spoken of as though they don't know that the sacrifice they are taking today (which will result in hateful spewing of accusations and much anguish) will not immediately have the results that they are hoping for. If we would be honest about it, the UPCI has lost way too many Godly men and women because of the foolish notion that has forced them to leave to effect any real change.
I preached in the early 70's in places where some churches survived but today I find that many of those efforts failed, in so much that the very buildings the services were held in are gone. Two places where I served as assistant pastor have entirely ceased to exist, so I know personally that this great gospel is a battlefield and in some cases our loved ones that have gone on to glory did so with broken hearts when they were no longer allowed to preach for others that they loved (because they had left the UPC) except they were allowed to preach the funeral.
So fine, this is a great fight of faith, but why do we have to devour each other when all they are doing is leaving the "club"? Why can't we allow a little light under the door for these that we weeped with, prayed with, ministered with, and in some cases have died with? Where is our love for one another in the way we are responding to one another in this?
My best friend from high school and one of the first souls to come to Jesus Christ through my ministry, that married my wife's sister, has not been in my home for over 25 years, and yet both of us are still full of the Holy Ghost, and both of us remember vividly the miracles that happened together in the early days. The loss of fellowship and friendship for such a long time was created by the goofy manual requirements that are offensive and in great need of being modified, yet those that have walked in those troubled waters have been greatly attacked and in many cases chased away as though the manual was the bible and they were agents of Satan.
I'm not offended at anyone, I love my brethren, both in and out of the UPC, but I am wondering out loud if we are so quick to condemn the motives of men of such high degree that have chosen to do something outside of our control, I wonder, if the UPCI, as it stands today, will repent of the slanderous ways (be honest, you know what I am talking about) and walk in love, or if instead God will move His flagship blessings on to others that hold the Word of God higher than the words of men. I hope for repentance, but I see judgment coming if we don't start valuing our brethren.
I'm new here, you don't know me, and there is a lot of freedom in being able to just open up your heart and speak without name and face recognition, but if you can hear what I am saying, please pray for us all to walk in love and contend for the unity of the faith.
This type of things breaks my heart. Wonder how it makes GOD FEEL?
Wonder if anyone ever considered throwing the old rule book (THE MANUAL) out the window and doing what THE WORD says: "To love your brother as your self." Sometimes men's rules divide when God's Word doesn't. Just the opinion from an old timer.
__________________
Fighting the Devil NOT my brother.
I'm not UPCI but to me if a like minded group of men desire to form a ministerial association then they have that right.
If they don't like the direction the UPCI is headed then,then I applaud them for following their convictions.
If a group of more liberal minded men want to form a ministerial fellowship then they have that right also.
If I left one group to join or help to form another,I would leave on good terms, and in a correct spirit.
If a card is a man's message them he is missing point anyways.
Likeminded folks usually stick together.
I don't care for church politics myself,the cause of Christ and The Kingdom of Heaven are major concerns for me.
NOT my brother.
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