Water Baptism, New Converts, and Leading of the HG

[stmatthew]

The Following was taken from another thread, and I feel it could use its own thread. So what are your comments? Do you accept that someone could live their whole "christian" life, and the holy Ghost never once lead them to see water baptism in Jesus name? Understand that the bible places water baptism as a principle doctrine for NEW CONVERTS, thus Gods intent is that a new convert would be baptized, and not wait for a better day.

Originally Posted by stmatthew

The problem I have with this is that it handicaps the Holy Ghos t as not having the power to "lead" someone into all truth. This is problematic to me when I look at men such as David Wilkerson, who by all intense purposes is probably a good man, with a good heart, doing a lot of good for drug attics and others. But yet after all these years, the Holy Ghost has yet to be able to lead him into an understanding of principle doctrines of baptism in Jesus Name. Not dogging DW. Just using him for an example.

What I find funny is that some of you that continue to believe that water baptism is not salvational, but still correct in scripture, never address the issue of the fact that some people either stop being lead by the holy ghost (LOST), or reject the correct mode of water baptism (LOST). So you are left with either a Holy Ghost that didn't do its job, or you are accepting someone as saved that has rejected the truth of the Word.


JMHO

[Ron]

Originally Posted by stmatthew

The Following was taken from another thread, and I feel it could use its own thread. So what are your comments? Do you accept that someone could live their whole "christian" life, and the holy Ghost never once lead them to see water baptism in Jesus name? Understand that the bible places water baptism as a principle doctrine for NEW CONVERTS, thus Gods intent is that a new convert would be baptized, and not wait for a better day.

St Matt, I believe in Acts 2:38 Salvation as the bare minimum for our entrance into Heaven.

Acts 2:38 is how we "obey" the Gospel which we are commanded to do.

[Praxeas]

Isn't the Holy Spirit working on the hearts of all even non-believers? Yet many never accept it. Or is it that the Spirit put's the desire and hunger in their heart but they have become complacent and never look more into God's word to see if what they believe is the full truth?

[stmatthew]

Is there merit to the argument in my post above??

[stmatthew]

I feel like there is.


Water Baptism is a 1st grade doctrine, yet some believe that God will skip teaching this 1st grade doctrine, and pass someone on up through the grades and graduate them, having never taught them this 1st grade doctrine.

And it becomes a catch-22, because if you are willing to admit that the scriptures teach that water baptism in Jesus name is the correct biblical way to be baptized, then this is the way God will teach it. Thus someone that goes through the "christian" life having never had this revealed by God, may not have been being taught and lead by God.

[Michael The Disciple]

Since the first sermon ever preached in the New Testament Church ended with THIS as an invitation to sinners to accept Christ:

37: Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do?
38: Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
Acts 2:38

Its a slam dunk that the Spirit is leading the seeking soul to be baptized and receive the Holy Ghost immediately.

[the raven]

Originally Posted by stmatthew

I feel like there is.


Water Baptism is a 1st grade doctrine, yet some believe that God will skip teaching this 1st grade doctrine, and pass someone on up through the grades and graduate them, having never taught them this 1st grade doctrine.

And it becomes a catch-22, because if you are willing to admit that the scriptures teach that water baptism in Jesus name is the correct biblical way to be baptized, then this is the way God will teach it. Thus someone that goes through the "christian" life having never had this revealed by God, may not have been being taught and lead by God.

Herein is the fundamental mistake. Baptism in Jesus name and Holy Ghost indwelling evidenced with speaking in another tongue is not about gradations. It is about coming into being, i.e. being born again to come into existence. There is no baby until the baby is brought forth. Thus there is no regeneration or new creation until one is born both of water and Spirit.

This follows from the words of Jesus which are not open to religious spin or philosophical opinion. If a man/woman/boy/girl is not born again they are in a state of non being and thus disenfranchised from the economy of the spirit only good for burning as one would the chaff left at harvest time.

[stmatthew]

Originally Posted by the raven

Herein is the fundamental mistake. Baptism in Jesus name and Holy Ghost indwelling evidenced with speaking in another tongue is not about gradations. It is about coming into being, i.e. being born again to come into existence. There is no baby until the baby is brought forth. Thus there is no regeneration or new creation until one is born both of water and Spirit.

This follows from the words of Jesus which are not open to religious spin or philosophical opinion. If a man/woman/boy/girl is not born again they are in a state of non being and thus disenfranchised from the economy of the spirit only good for burning as one would the chaff left at harvest time.

You have likely misunderstood what I was saying, or more likely I have said it poorly.

I agree completely that there is no new birth prior to the water/Spirit birth. But it does not do violence to the new birth message to say that the doctrine of water baptism is 1st grade doctrine, as it is a doctrine to be preached to one that has yet to be born again.

Thus when I say first grade, I simply mean that it is a doctrine that would not be left out for many years, but one that would be taught at the beginning of faith. I am not equating 'Grades" to life, but to position (timetable) of teaching

[the raven]

Originally Posted by stmatthew

You have likely misunderstood what I was saying, or more likely I have said it poorly.

I agree completely that there is no new birth prior to the water/Spirit birth. But it does not do viollence to the new birth message to say that the doctrine of water baptism is 1st grade doctrine, as it is a doctrine to be preached to one that has yet to be born again.

Thus when I say first grade, I simply mean that it is a doctrine that would not be left out for many years, but one that would be taught at the beginning of faith.

Okay! I understand your point! I agree! It is foundational to all other aspects of the Spirit and Word creationary growth accelerators. The new birth message is the axiomatic theme inthe realm of redemptive lift.

[stmatthew]

My point of the thread was that even one that does not believe that baptism is salvational should expect a new believer to be baptized. And also that if one gets the Holy Ghost in a trinitarian church and allows the spirit to lead them that one of the first things the Holy Ghost would lead them to was Jesus name baptism, as it is a foundational principle.

thus those that supposedly have the holy ghost, yet spend years never seeing or accepting water baptism in Jesus name, are either not allowing the holy ghost to lead them past their traditions, or have rejected the truth that the holy ghost has led them to.