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Old 09-02-2008, 03:15 PM
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mfblume mfblume is offline
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Location: Portage la Prairie, MB CANADA
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Re: Proof Of Soul Sleep

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When he says we are willing to be absent from the body and present with the Lord observe the context. He says "if our bodies are dissolved" we have another body eternal in the Heavens.
I know the context. I am very aware of it. But you are misreading it. There would be no option to be absent from the body if you were correct. Absence from the body means NAKEDNESS of the soul and spirit. The BODY is what clothes the soul and spirit. WE are soul and spirit, CLOTHED BY A BODY. And WE can be absent from the body. This means soul and spirit is apart from the body. Nothing says anything about soul sleep in mortal death here in the context. It actually is saying the opposite.

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It is clear from his PREVIOUS TEACHING to them that the NEW BODY OF IMMORTALITY is given not at death but at the RESURRECTION OF THE DEAD taught by him in 1 Cor. 15.
Nobody said it was given at death, except full preterists. The resurrection of the dead in 1 Cor 15 is a yet-future rapture when we gain new bodies. In the meantime, we ARE NAKED without a body, by being ABSENT FROM THE BODY, when we die and are with the Lord. At the resurrection, we rejoin the soul and spirit to the body, but the body is rendered IMMORTAL then.

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So when we are absent FROM THE BODY THAT IS DISSOLVED then (at resurrection) we can take on the new immortal body he speaks of that is eternal in the Heavens.
This has nothing to do with saying we are sleeping in soul while absent from the body.

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It cannot be overlooked that Pauls belief was that eternal life was synonomous with IMMORTALITY.
You are missing something very important. WE ALREADY HAVE ETERNAL LIFE, according to 1 John.

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1Jo 5:13 KJV These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.
Our souls and spirits are already immortal. Only our BODIES (tabernacles) are mortal. And when we read of mortality putting on immortality, that is not speaking of the soul or spirit but of the MORTAL BODY in which we presently groan. You are not seeing the distinction of the "WE" from the body in 2 Cor 5. Paul spoke of himself as SOMETHING IN A BODY. And he can be ABSENT FROM THE BODY. What is absent from the body? PAUL. And since PAUL is distinguished from his BODY by the vocabulary he used, when he speaks of mortality putting on immortality he is speaking of the BODY.

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To the Romans:

6: Who will render to every man according to his deeds:
7: To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life: Romans 2:6-7
This is in reference to the BODY, since 1 John clearly says we already have eternal life.

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Eternal life is the same as IMMORTALITY. Immortality is plainly given at the RESURRECTION.
Actually immortal life IS NOT the same as eternal life. Something eternal HAS NO BEGINNING, brother. Many people forget or are unaware of that . Eternal means NO BEGINNING nor ending. Not just no ending.

When we understand what ETERNAL LIFE is, we realize it is something we CAN HAVE, in these of HAVING GOD, because ONLY GOD is eternal. "We" cannot be made eternal because we had a beginning whether we live forever or not.

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52: In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
53: For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
54: So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.
55: O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory? 1 Cor. 15:51-55.

So the "instant Heaven" doctrine disappears from 2 Cor. 5:8 when its CONTEXT is considered.
NO, brother. You jumped far too quick and formulated your belief about this issue before you even knew of the fact that ETERNAL LIFE is GOD, and is no beginning nor ending. Also, THE CONTEXT IS THE BODY in 2 Cor 5 and 1 Cor 15. You need to more thoroughly research these issues before you jump to false conclusions based on lack of full awareness of the beliefs about this.

1) Since the BODY is what is made immortal at the resurrection, and not the soul nor spirit...

2) and since the context of 2 Cor 5 and 1 Cor 15 is the BODY...

3) and since Paul said we are NAKED when outside the body and absent from it...

4) and since 2 Cor 5 and 1 Cor 15 together agree and do not conflict...

5) the resurrection is when 2 Cor 5 is fulfilled when we receive a new body, while in the meantime we are absent from ANY body after death, and present with the Lord.

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What does Paul mean by asking the question "Oh death where is thy sting" and "Oh grave where is thy victory".
He refers to the physical bodily death ceasing at the resurrection, when no one ever mortally dies again.

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The sting of death and the victory over the grave is so plainly LINKED TO THE RESURRECTION.
EXACTLY! But between death and the resurrection, the soul and spirit is absent from the body and with the Lord.

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The erroneous doctrine of eternal life apart from the resurrectionhas no meaning in this light. Until then death has the victory according to Paul.
You totally miss the context of the BODY being the subject, as well as mistaken what eternal life means.

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Christians today only think the grave is already defeated. It is something taken by faith. Yet its reality is NOT UNTIL THIS:

54: So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.
55: O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory? 1 Cor. 15:51-55.
I agree! But we are absent from the body and with the Lord after death until death is eradicated and our bodies are made immortal, and rejoin those bodies.
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"Many Christians do not try to understand what was written in a verse in the Bible. Instead they approach the passage to prove what they already believe."
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