The Difference between PCI, PAJC and the New Heritage False Claiming Posers

[DAII]

Originally Posted by sdg

i for one am a little weary of the attempts by some on the forum who claim heritage w/ the original pajcers and 3 steppers of yesteryear.

Yet, i am thankful for internet forums that allow truth to be spoken.

For about 2 to 3 generations, we know that men of diverse beliefs on the idea of new birth tried to fellowship and co-exist under a noble experiment and failed primarily when they were forced to leave the upci in the 1990's.

Although the same fundamental doctrine that asked both sides to not contend for the disunity of the faith ... And is touted by today's posers as part of the as that all ministers must adhere to ... Was ignored by hate-filled radicals, almost from the fellowship's inception, and by those who have remained in this presently waning fellowship.

Yes, the merger sought to unite a group of primarily white oneness preachers under acts 2:38. The fact is the only thing these men had in common was their shared belief of the godhead and performing baptism in jesus name. As to the significance of acts 2:38 and the new birth they differed greatly.

Shamefully, today those who rewrite and skew our history leave out important components of our shared apostolic oneness history while lifting the banner of our acts 2:38 heritage.

As a person who was raised in the oneness apostolic movement i know the emphasis put on the idea of heritage ...

It is a value reified by the culture.

It is harped on from pulpits ... It is a central theme of many conferences ... And is a focal point of a lot of the literature i've read since my childhood.

History is presented as to scaffold this value of 3-step holiness apostolic heritage and used to validate their existence and the extra-biblical truths held by many.

Just early this year, a mangun stepped up before those at bott 2007 ... Making his famous/infamous remarks in support of television advertising ... And as part of his presentation he sought to use photos of his dad ... And persuaded the crowd that he was still true to his heritage.

The heritage badge is arrogantly worn by the radicalized ultracon zealots who use snippets of skewed history to validate their heritage and make themselves victims of the schism of the early pentecostal movement called the "new issue".

Today's pci oneness apostolic compromisers and charismatics are belittled as not being true or embarrassed of their heritage ... And even mush.

What is bothersome and disingenous in all of this is that those who glorify and champion their heritage ... While playing the victim and stating they monopolize all truth ....

fail to realize that in their zeal to revise history books and present the truth... They are the one's not true to the heritage ... Our history truly reveals.

The truth is ... That the early oneness pioneer giants like haywood, urshan, goss, clyde haney ... And most others never considered trinitarians as lost ... Fellowshipped with them regularly ... Preached in their events and had them preach in their own.

facts show that pci men like goss and small even started fellowships w/ trinitarians in an effort to spread the gospel of jesus christ, as evident w/ the early formation of the pentecostal assemblies of canada.

even the general assemblies, circa 1918, here in the states allow for trinitarians and oneness believers to shortly co-exist with the new issue not being a centerpoint.

yet, by 1925-30 ... And attempt to create solely oneness apostolic entities was marked by some success but also fragmentation and division ... The latter is still w/ us today.

apostolic whites and blacks chose to divide over racial lines.

when the upci formed the real radical zealot 3 -steppers stayed w/ the real pajc as not to fellowship w/ those "weak on doctrine"

even from the onset of the upci merger, criticisms abounded when goss, a one-stepper took office as the first general supt. Of the newly formed upci the radicals chose to take him out of office because of his "weakness" ... Succeeding in the early 50's. This is the same one-stepping howard goss, that believed baptists were saved.

the org continued to remain somewhat unified throughout the 50's to 70's suffering various schisms ... And then the radical zealots rose up again in the 1970's when questions of which new birth doctrine was being preached overseas, namely colombia, and add demand the addition of "for the remission of sins" to the fundamental doctrine.

In 1990, the 3 step radicals finally succeeded in doing away w/ the one steppers w/ the passing of the westburg resolution and the institution of the affirmation statement.

Those of the oneness 1 step persuasion realized that co-existence w/ a group that seek disfellowship rather than fellowship were shown the door ....

With the post as schism of the 1990's, many of these 2cd/3rd generation one-stepping apostolics had no problems joining w/ trinitarians in fellowships like global network. Why? Because they realized that most of the radicalized 3 steppers would never consider them as truly brethren.
The facts are plain ... 2cd and 3rd generation pciers, especially from ten. And canada can tell you ... The stories of what really happened during the noble failed experiment. Once again, history paints a truly different picture than those zealouts who are far removed from the hetitage of the past.

Today the new "heritage" posers claim unity in purpose and direction w/ the pciers and pajcers of the past... Yet they still seek to disfellowship and berate their views and doctrine today.

Ironically, today this spirit of disunity has ripped the upci again. The very as that sought doctrinal purity is pushing the ultra-radicals out.

In conclusion, facts show that the early pciers and pajcers had very different views with those who will not consider trinitarians as saved and will not fellowship w/ those who look, dress, act and believe like them.

This is in sharp contrast, several generations later. ... Of a radicalized element within our oneness ranks that through propaganda and lack of scholarship have whitewashed our history and true heritage while disfellowshipping even eating their own]their own without abandon.

Is truth limited to repeating the mantra of acts 2:38 ... Presenting soteriological and christological views? Are we not to be truthful in all things ... Such as our history and applicatation of bible-based holiness principle?

Those who drumbeat heritage are nominally apostolics ...

To misquote my friend ferd ...

"there is a very big difference between what is the new fangled pajc and what was the light pajc view of old."


yes, both sides have evolved ... With 3 steppers making their circles smaller and smaller ... With continued in-fighting among each other ...

While pciers have returned to their roots of open fellowship and seeking unity w/ the entire body of christ.

but i still love the posers.

arise!!!!

[Barb]

Originally Posted by DAII

arise!!!!

Daniel, as you are well aware, I am a so-called 3-stepper. I say "so-called" because I believe 3-step to be a misnomer, but I digress...

The points you and others make regarding the brethren from days gone by, the facts which have mysteriously been deleted from our history, and on and on, give me pause, and I am not afraid to admit it.

There is no question that there have been injustices...grave injustices made. People have been callously cast aside, as if their contributions to the cause of Christ, and the building of an organization/ministerial alliance meant nothing.

It is not just a shame, it is tragic beyond words, and the ramifications of the actions and words of some may never be fully understood in this realm.

But I can say that the Apostolic/Pentecostal/Oneness doctrine is my heritage, and I am proud to be numbered with the the saints of days gone by, as well as the 20 century pioneers of the gospel, and the Church today...warts and all.

I wish I could say that once we come to the saving knowledge of the Lord Jesus Christ that we would never make mistakes in judgment, and we had it all...alas, tis not so.

Zeal can be a terrible thing, Daniel, and the tragedy of religious zeal is that when it consumes, often there is no turning back.

The thing about religious zeal is, it is a double-edged sword...those who take a stand on both sides have to take care that we do not judge too harshly, killing the memory of the past and devouring what remains.

As I sit here and ponder what I have written, I realize all the more the sobering words spoken long ago, that we will give an account for the deeds done in this body.

[Apocrypha]

Originally Posted by DAII

arise!!!!

Im still in awe that you instigated a Pentecostal Herald article by Seagraves for HMH finally by posting the false teachings online where everyone could hear them and cringe. Your the man.

[EA]

Originally Posted by Barb

Daniel, as you are well aware, I am a so-called 3-stepper. I say "so-called" because I believe 3-step to be a misnomer, but I digress...

The points you and others make regarding the brethren from days gone by, the facts which have mysteriously been deleted from our history, and on and on, give me pause, and I am not afraid to admit it.

There is no question that there have been injustices...grave injustices made. People have been callously cast aside, as if their contributions to the cause of Christ, and the building of an organization/ministerial alliance meant nothing.

It is not just a shame, it is tragic beyond words, and the ramifications of the actions and words of some may never be fully understood in this realm.

But I can say that the Apostolic/Pentecostal/Oneness doctrine is my heritage, and I am proud to be numbered with the the saints of days gone by, as well as the 20 century pioneers of the gospel, and the Church today...warts and all.

I wish I could say that once we come to the saving knowledge of the Lord Jesus Christ that we would never make mistakes in judgment, and we had it all...alas, tis not so.

Zeal can be a terrible thing, Daniel, and the tragedy of religious zeal is that when it consumes, often there is no turning back.

The thing about religious zeal is, it is a double-edged sword...those who take a stand on both sides have to take care that we do not judge too harshly, killing the memory of the past and devouring what remains.

As I sit here and ponder what I have written, I realize all the more the sobering words spoken long ago, that we will give an account for the deeds done in this body.

Powerful words, Barb.

[DAII]

Originally Posted by SDG

I for one am a little weary of the attempts by some on the forum who claim heritage w/ the original PAJCers and 3 steppers of yesteryear.

Yet, I am thankful for internet forums that allow truth to be spoken.

For about 2 to 3 generations, we know that men of diverse beliefs on the idea of New Birth tried to fellowship and co-exist under a noble experiment and failed primarily when they were forced to leave the UPCI in the 1990's.

Although the same Fundamental Doctrine that asked both sides to not contend for the disunity of the faith ... and is touted by today's posers as part of the AS that ALL MINISTERS MUST ADHERE TO ... was ignored by hate-filled radicals, almost from the fellowship's inception, and by those who have remained in this presently waning fellowship.

Yes, the merger sought to unite a group of primarily white Oneness preachers under Acts 2:38. The fact is the only thing these men had in common was their shared belief of the Godhead and performing baptism in Jesus name. As to the significance of Acts 2:38 and the New Birth they differed greatly.

Shamefully, today those who rewrite and skew our history leave out important components of our shared Apostolic Oneness history while lifting the banner of our Acts 2:38 heritage.

As a person who was raised in the Oneness Apostolic movement I know the emphasis put on the idea of Heritage ...

it is a value reified by the culture.

It is harped on from pulpits ... it is a central theme of many conferences ... and is a focal point of a lot of the literature I've read since my childhood.

History is presented as to scaffold this value of 3-step Holiness Apostolic heritage and used to validate their existence and the extra-biblical truths held by many.

Just early this year, A Mangun stepped up before those at BOTT 2007 ... making his famous/infamous remarks in support of television advertising ... and as part of his presentation he sought to use photos of his dad ... and persuaded the crowd that he was still TRUE TO HIS HERITAGE.

The heritage badge is arrogantly worn by the radicalized Ultracon zealots who use snippets of skewed history to validate their heritage and make themselves victims of the schism of the early Pentecostal movement called the "New Issue".

Today's PCI Oneness Apostolic compromisers and charismatics are belittled as not being true or embarrassed of their heritage ... and even MUSH.

What is bothersome and disingenous in all of this is that those who glorify and champion their heritage ... while playing the victim and stating they monopolize ALL TRUTH ....

fail to realize that in their zeal to revise history books AND present the truth... they are the one's not true to the heritage ... our history truly reveals.

The truth is ... that the early Oneness pioneer GIANTS like Haywood, Urshan, Goss, Clyde Haney ... and most others never considered Trinitarians as lost ... fellowshipped with them regularly ... preached in their events and had them preach in their own.

Facts show that PCI men like Goss and Small even started fellowships w/ Trinitarians in an effort to spread the Gospel of Jesus Christ, as evident w/ the early formation of the Pentecostal Assemblies of Canada.

Even the General Assemblies, circa 1918, here in the States allow for Trinitarians and Oneness believers to shortly co-exist with the New Issue not being a centerpoint.

Yet, by 1925-30 ... and attempt to create solely Oneness Apostolic entities was marked by some success but also fragmentation and division ... the latter is still w/ us today.

Apostolic whites and blacks chose to divide over racial lines.

When the UPCI formed the real radical zealot 3 -steppers stayed w/ the real PAJC as not to fellowship w/ those "weak on doctrine"

Even from the onset of the UPCI merger, criticisms abounded when Goss, a one-stepper took office as the first General Supt. of the newly formed UPCI the radicals chose to take him out of office because of his "weakness" ... succeeding in the early 50's. This is the same one-stepping Howard Goss, that believed BAPTISTS WERE SAVED.

The org continued to remain somewhat unified throughout the 50's to 70's suffering various schisms ... and then the radical zealots rose up again in the 1970's when questions of which New Birth doctrine was being preached overseas, namely Colombia, and add demand the addition of "for the remission of sins" to the Fundamental Doctrine.

In 1990, the 3 step radicals finally succeeded in doing away w/ the one steppers w/ the passing of the Westburg resolution and the institution of the Affirmation Statement.

Those of the Oneness 1 step persuasion realized that co-existence w/ a group that seek disfellowship rather than fellowship were shown the door ....

With the post AS schism of the 1990's, many of these 2cd/3rd generation one-stepping Apostolics had no problems joining w/ Trinitarians in fellowships like Global Network. Why? Because they realized that most of the radicalized 3 steppers would never consider them as truly brethren.
The facts are plain ... 2cd and 3rd generation PCIers, especially from Ten. and Canada can tell you ... the stories of what really happened during the noble failed experiment. Once again, history paints a truly different picture than those zealouts who are far removed from the hetitage of the past.

Today the new "Heritage" posers claim unity in purpose and direction w/ the PCIers and PAJCers of the past... yet they still seek to disfellowship and berate their views and doctrine TODAY.

Ironically, today this spirit of disunity has ripped the UPCI again. The very AS that sought doctrinal purity is pushing the ultra-radicals out.

In conclusion, facts show that the early PCIers and PAJCers had very different views with those who will not consider Trinitarians as saved and will not fellowship w/ those who look, dress, act and believe like them.

This is in sharp contrast, several generations later. ... of a radicalized element within our Oneness ranks that through propaganda and lack of scholarship have whitewashed our history and true heritage while disfellowshipping even eating their own]their own without abandon.

Is truth limited to repeating the mantra of Acts 2:38 ... presenting soteriological and Christological views? Are we not to be truthful in all things ... such as our history and applicatation of bible-based holiness principle?

Those who drumbeat heritage are nominally Apostolics ...

To misquote my friend Ferd ...

"there is a very big difference between what is the new fangled PAJC and what was the light PAJC view of old."


Yes, both sides have evolved ... with 3 steppers making their circles smaller and smaller ... with continued in-fighting among each other ...

while PCIers have returned to their roots of open fellowship and seeking unity w/ the entire Body of Christ.

But I still love the posers.

Great post

[aegsm76]

There is some truth in SDG's post.
There is also some opinion, which is not necessarily truth, but his viewpoint of the truth.
Others have different viewpoints.
Where we all have problems is when we view our opinions as the truth.
I include myself in that comment.

[UnTraditional]

Originally Posted by SDG

I for one am a little weary of the attempts by some on the forum who claim heritage w/ the original PAJCers and 3 steppers of yesteryear.

Yet, I am thankful for internet forums that allow truth to be spoken.

For about 2 to 3 generations, we know that men of diverse beliefs on the idea of New Birth tried to fellowship and co-exist under a noble experiment and failed primarily when they were forced to leave the UPCI in the 1990's.

Although the same Fundamental Doctrine that asked both sides to not contend for the disunity of the faith ... and is touted by today's posers as part of the AS that ALL MINISTERS MUST ADHERE TO ... was ignored by hate-filled radicals, almost from the fellowship's inception, and by those who have remained in this presently waning fellowship.

Yes, the merger sought to unite a group of primarily white Oneness preachers under Acts 2:38. The fact is the only thing these men had in common was their shared belief of the Godhead and performing baptism in Jesus name. As to the significance of Acts 2:38 and the New Birth they differed greatly.

Shamefully, today those who rewrite and skew our history leave out important components of our shared Apostolic Oneness history while lifting the banner of our Acts 2:38 heritage.

As a person who was raised in the Oneness Apostolic movement I know the emphasis put on the idea of Heritage ...

it is a value reified by the culture.

It is harped on from pulpits ... it is a central theme of many conferences ... and is a focal point of a lot of the literature I've read since my childhood.

History is presented as to scaffold this value of 3-step Holiness Apostolic heritage and used to validate their existence and the extra-biblical truths held by many.

Just early this year, A Mangun stepped up before those at BOTT 2007 ... making his famous/infamous remarks in support of television advertising ... and as part of his presentation he sought to use photos of his dad ... and persuaded the crowd that he was still TRUE TO HIS HERITAGE.

The heritage badge is arrogantly worn by the radicalized Ultracon zealots who use snippets of skewed history to validate their heritage and make themselves victims of the schism of the early Pentecostal movement called the "New Issue".

Today's PCI Oneness Apostolic compromisers and charismatics are belittled as not being true or embarrassed of their heritage ... and even MUSH.

What is bothersome and disingenous in all of this is that those who glorify and champion their heritage ... while playing the victim and stating they monopolize ALL TRUTH ....

fail to realize that in their zeal to revise history books AND present the truth... they are the one's not true to the heritage ... our history truly reveals.

The truth is ... that the early Oneness pioneer GIANTS like Haywood, Urshan, Goss, Clyde Haney ... and most others never considered Trinitarians as lost ... fellowshipped with them regularly ... preached in their events and had them preach in their own.

Facts show that PCI men like Goss and Small even started fellowships w/ Trinitarians in an effort to spread the Gospel of Jesus Christ, as evident w/ the early formation of the Pentecostal Assemblies of Canada.

Even the General Assemblies, circa 1918, here in the States allow for Trinitarians and Oneness believers to shortly co-exist with the New Issue not being a centerpoint.

Yet, by 1925-30 ... and attempt to create solely Oneness Apostolic entities was marked by some success but also fragmentation and division ... the latter is still w/ us today.

Apostolic whites and blacks chose to divide over racial lines.

When the UPCI formed the real radical zealot 3 -steppers stayed w/ the real PAJC as not to fellowship w/ those "weak on doctrine"

Even from the onset of the UPCI merger, criticisms abounded when Goss, a one-stepper took office as the first General Supt. of the newly formed UPCI the radicals chose to take him out of office because of his "weakness" ... succeeding in the early 50's. This is the same one-stepping Howard Goss, that believed BAPTISTS WERE SAVED.

The org continued to remain somewhat unified throughout the 50's to 70's suffering various schisms ... and then the radical zealots rose up again in the 1970's when questions of which New Birth doctrine was being preached overseas, namely Colombia, and add demand the addition of "for the remission of sins" to the Fundamental Doctrine.

In 1990, the 3 step radicals finally succeeded in doing away w/ the one steppers w/ the passing of the Westburg resolution and the institution of the Affirmation Statement.

Those of the Oneness 1 step persuasion realized that co-existence w/ a group that seek disfellowship rather than fellowship were shown the door ....

With the post AS schism of the 1990's, many of these 2cd/3rd generation one-stepping Apostolics had no problems joining w/ Trinitarians in fellowships like Global Network. Why? Because they realized that most of the radicalized 3 steppers would never consider them as truly brethren.
The facts are plain ... 2cd and 3rd generation PCIers, especially from Ten. and Canada can tell you ... the stories of what really happened during the noble failed experiment. Once again, history paints a truly different picture than those zealouts who are far removed from the hetitage of the past.

Today the new "Heritage" posers claim unity in purpose and direction w/ the PCIers and PAJCers of the past... yet they still seek to disfellowship and berate their views and doctrine TODAY.

Ironically, today this spirit of disunity has ripped the UPCI again. The very AS that sought doctrinal purity is pushing the ultra-radicals out.

In conclusion, facts show that the early PCIers and PAJCers had very different views with those who will not consider Trinitarians as saved and will not fellowship w/ those who look, dress, act and believe like them.

This is in sharp contrast, several generations later. ... of a radicalized element within our Oneness ranks that through propaganda and lack of scholarship have whitewashed our history and true heritage while disfellowshipping even eating their own]their own without abandon.

Is truth limited to repeating the mantra of Acts 2:38 ... presenting soteriological and Christological views? Are we not to be truthful in all things ... such as our history and applicatation of bible-based holiness principle?

Those who drumbeat heritage are nominally Apostolics ...

To misquote my friend Ferd ...

"there is a very big difference between what is the new fangled PAJC and what was the light PAJC view of old."


Yes, both sides have evolved ... with 3 steppers making their circles smaller and smaller ... with continued in-fighting among each other ...

while PCIers have returned to their roots of open fellowship and seeking unity w/ the entire Body of Christ.

But I still love the posers.

Awesome post. Not more needs to be added to it. I am a former 3-stepper who found grace and mercy, and now more identify with men like Goss. Needless to say, I would never be welcomed into pulpits of a 3-stepper, predominantly for the message of repentance and grace. Before any 3-steppers get in a huff, I already know this is true. It has already happened.

[aegsm76]

Originally Posted by SDG

I for one am a little weary of the attempts by some on the forum who claim heritage w/ the original PAJCers and 3 steppers of yesteryear.

Yet, I am thankful for internet forums that allow truth to be spoken.

For about 2 to 3 generations, we know that men of diverse beliefs on the idea of New Birth tried to fellowship and co-exist under a noble experiment and failed primarily when they were forced to leave the UPCI in the 1990's.

Although the same Fundamental Doctrine that asked both sides to not contend for the disunity of the faith ... and is touted by today's posers as part of the AS that ALL MINISTERS MUST ADHERE TO ... was ignored by hate-filled radicals, almost from the fellowship's inception, and by those who have remained in this presently waning fellowship.

Yes, the merger sought to unite a group of primarily white Oneness preachers under Acts 2:38. The fact is the only thing these men had in common was their shared belief of the Godhead and performing baptism in Jesus name. As to the significance of Acts 2:38 and the New Birth they differed greatly.

Shamefully, today those who rewrite and skew our history leave out important components of our shared Apostolic Oneness history while lifting the banner of our Acts 2:38 heritage.

As a person who was raised in the Oneness Apostolic movement I know the emphasis put on the idea of Heritage ...

it is a value reified by the culture.

It is harped on from pulpits ... it is a central theme of many conferences ... and is a focal point of a lot of the literature I've read since my childhood.

History is presented as to scaffold this value of 3-step Holiness Apostolic heritage and used to validate their existence and the extra-biblical truths held by many.

Just early this year, A Mangun stepped up before those at BOTT 2007 ... making his famous/infamous remarks in support of television advertising ... and as part of his presentation he sought to use photos of his dad ... and persuaded the crowd that he was still TRUE TO HIS HERITAGE.

The heritage badge is arrogantly worn by the radicalized Ultracon zealots who use snippets of skewed history to validate their heritage and make themselves victims of the schism of the early Pentecostal movement called the "New Issue".

Today's PCI Oneness Apostolic compromisers and charismatics are belittled as not being true or embarrassed of their heritage ... and even MUSH.

What is bothersome and disingenous in all of this is that those who glorify and champion their heritage ... while playing the victim and stating they monopolize ALL TRUTH ....

fail to realize that in their zeal to revise history books AND present the truth... they are the one's not true to the heritage ... our history truly reveals.

The truth is ... that the early Oneness pioneer GIANTS like Haywood, Urshan, Goss, Clyde Haney ... and most others never considered Trinitarians as lost ... fellowshipped with them regularly ... preached in their events and had them preach in their own.

Facts show that PCI men like Goss and Small even started fellowships w/ Trinitarians in an effort to spread the Gospel of Jesus Christ, as evident w/ the early formation of the Pentecostal Assemblies of Canada.

Even the General Assemblies, circa 1918, here in the States allow for Trinitarians and Oneness believers to shortly co-exist with the New Issue not being a centerpoint.

Yet, by 1925-30 ... and attempt to create solely Oneness Apostolic entities was marked by some success but also fragmentation and division ... the latter is still w/ us today.

Apostolic whites and blacks chose to divide over racial lines.

When the UPCI formed the real radical zealot 3 -steppers stayed w/ the real PAJC as not to fellowship w/ those "weak on doctrine"

Even from the onset of the UPCI merger, criticisms abounded when Goss, a one-stepper took office as the first General Supt. of the newly formed UPCI the radicals chose to take him out of office because of his "weakness" ... succeeding in the early 50's. This is the same one-stepping Howard Goss, that believed BAPTISTS WERE SAVED.

The org continued to remain somewhat unified throughout the 50's to 70's suffering various schisms ... and then the radical zealots rose up again in the 1970's when questions of which New Birth doctrine was being preached overseas, namely Colombia, and add demand the addition of "for the remission of sins" to the Fundamental Doctrine.

In 1990, the 3 step radicals finally succeeded in doing away w/ the one steppers w/ the passing of the Westburg resolution and the institution of the Affirmation Statement.

Those of the Oneness 1 step persuasion realized that co-existence w/ a group that seek disfellowship rather than fellowship were shown the door ....

With the post AS schism of the 1990's, many of these 2cd/3rd generation one-stepping Apostolics had no problems joining w/ Trinitarians in fellowships like Global Network. Why? Because they realized that most of the radicalized 3 steppers would never consider them as truly brethren.
The facts are plain ... 2cd and 3rd generation PCIers, especially from Ten. and Canada can tell you ... the stories of what really happened during the noble failed experiment. Once again, history paints a truly different picture than those zealouts who are far removed from the hetitage of the past.

Today the new "Heritage" posers claim unity in purpose and direction w/ the PCIers and PAJCers of the past... yet they still seek to disfellowship and berate their views and doctrine TODAY.

Ironically, today this spirit of disunity has ripped the UPCI again. The very AS that sought doctrinal purity is pushing the ultra-radicals out.

In conclusion, facts show that the early PCIers and PAJCers had very different views with those who will not consider Trinitarians as saved and will not fellowship w/ those who look, dress, act and believe like them.

This is in sharp contrast, several generations later. ... of a radicalized element within our Oneness ranks that through propaganda and lack of scholarship have whitewashed our history and true heritage while disfellowshipping even eating their own]their own without abandon.

Is truth limited to repeating the mantra of Acts 2:38 ... presenting soteriological and Christological views? Are we not to be truthful in all things ... such as our history and applicatation of bible-based holiness principle?

Those who drumbeat heritage are nominally Apostolics ...

To misquote my friend Ferd ...

"there is a very big difference between what is the new fangled PAJC and what was the light PAJC view of old."


Yes, both sides have evolved ... with 3 steppers making their circles smaller and smaller ... with continued in-fighting among each other ...

while PCIers have returned to their roots of open fellowship and seeking unity w/ the entire Body of Christ.

But I still love the posers.

I didn't want this to get lost.
Plus, I thought this post needed to be quoted, again.

There is some truth in SDG's post.
There is also some opinion, which is not necessarily truth, but his viewpoint of the truth.
Others have different viewpoints.
Where we all have problems is when we view our opinions as the truth.
I include myself in that comment.

[Sam]

Originally Posted by SDG

I for one am a little weary of the attempts by some on the forum who claim heritage w/ the original PAJCers and 3 steppers of yesteryear.

Yet, I am thankful for internet forums that allow truth to be spoken.

For about 2 to 3 generations, we know that men of diverse beliefs on the idea of New Birth tried to fellowship and co-exist under a noble experiment and failed primarily when they were forced to leave the UPCI in the 1990's.

Although the same Fundamental Doctrine that asked both sides to not contend for the disunity of the faith ... and is touted by today's posers as part of the AS that ALL MINISTERS MUST ADHERE TO ... was ignored by hate-filled radicals, almost from the fellowship's inception, and by those who have remained in this presently waning fellowship.

Yes, the merger sought to unite a group of primarily white Oneness preachers under Acts 2:38. The fact is the only thing these men had in common was their shared belief of the Godhead and performing baptism in Jesus name. As to the significance of Acts 2:38 and the New Birth they differed greatly.

Shamefully, today those who rewrite and skew our history leave out important components of our shared Apostolic Oneness history while lifting the banner of our Acts 2:38 heritage.

As a person who was raised in the Oneness Apostolic movement I know the emphasis put on the idea of Heritage ...

it is a value reified by the culture.

It is harped on from pulpits ... it is a central theme of many conferences ... and is a focal point of a lot of the literature I've read since my childhood.

History is presented as to scaffold this value of 3-step Holiness Apostolic heritage and used to validate their existence and the extra-biblical truths held by many.

Just early this year, A Mangun stepped up before those at BOTT 2007 ... making his famous/infamous remarks in support of television advertising ... and as part of his presentation he sought to use photos of his dad ... and persuaded the crowd that he was still TRUE TO HIS HERITAGE.

The heritage badge is arrogantly worn by the radicalized Ultracon zealots who use snippets of skewed history to validate their heritage and make themselves victims of the schism of the early Pentecostal movement called the "New Issue".

Today's PCI Oneness Apostolic compromisers and charismatics are belittled as not being true or embarrassed of their heritage ... and even MUSH.

What is bothersome and disingenous in all of this is that those who glorify and champion their heritage ... while playing the victim and stating they monopolize ALL TRUTH ....

fail to realize that in their zeal to revise history books AND present the truth... they are the one's not true to the heritage ... our history truly reveals.

The truth is ... that the early Oneness pioneer GIANTS like Haywood, Urshan, Goss, Clyde Haney ... and most others never considered Trinitarians as lost ... fellowshipped with them regularly ... preached in their events and had them preach in their own.

Facts show that PCI men like Goss and Small even started fellowships w/ Trinitarians in an effort to spread the Gospel of Jesus Christ, as evident w/ the early formation of the Pentecostal Assemblies of Canada.

Even the General Assemblies, circa 1918, here in the States allow for Trinitarians and Oneness believers to shortly co-exist with the New Issue not being a centerpoint.

Yet, by 1925-30 ... and attempt to create solely Oneness Apostolic entities was marked by some success but also fragmentation and division ... the latter is still w/ us today.

Apostolic whites and blacks chose to divide over racial lines.

When the UPCI formed the real radical zealot 3 -steppers stayed w/ the real PAJC as not to fellowship w/ those "weak on doctrine"

Even from the onset of the UPCI merger, criticisms abounded when Goss, a one-stepper took office as the first General Supt. of the newly formed UPCI the radicals chose to take him out of office because of his "weakness" ... succeeding in the early 50's. This is the same one-stepping Howard Goss, that believed BAPTISTS WERE SAVED.

The org continued to remain somewhat unified throughout the 50's to 70's suffering various schisms ... and then the radical zealots rose up again in the 1970's when questions of which New Birth doctrine was being preached overseas, namely Colombia, and add demand the addition of "for the remission of sins" to the Fundamental Doctrine.

In 1990, the 3 step radicals finally succeeded in doing away w/ the one steppers w/ the passing of the Westburg resolution and the institution of the Affirmation Statement.

Those of the Oneness 1 step persuasion realized that co-existence w/ a group that seek disfellowship rather than fellowship were shown the door ....

With the post AS schism of the 1990's, many of these 2cd/3rd generation one-stepping Apostolics had no problems joining w/ Trinitarians in fellowships like Global Network. Why? Because they realized that most of the radicalized 3 steppers would never consider them as truly brethren.
The facts are plain ... 2cd and 3rd generation PCIers, especially from Ten. and Canada can tell you ... the stories of what really happened during the noble failed experiment. Once again, history paints a truly different picture than those zealouts who are far removed from the hetitage of the past.

Today the new "Heritage" posers claim unity in purpose and direction w/ the PCIers and PAJCers of the past... yet they still seek to disfellowship and berate their views and doctrine TODAY.

Ironically, today this spirit of disunity has ripped the UPCI again. The very AS that sought doctrinal purity is pushing the ultra-radicals out.

In conclusion, facts show that the early PCIers and PAJCers had very different views with those who will not consider Trinitarians as saved and will not fellowship w/ those who look, dress, act and believe like them.

This is in sharp contrast, several generations later. ... of a radicalized element within our Oneness ranks that through propaganda and lack of scholarship have whitewashed our history and true heritage while disfellowshipping even eating their own]their own without abandon.

Is truth limited to repeating the mantra of Acts 2:38 ... presenting soteriological and Christological views? Are we not to be truthful in all things ... such as our history and applicatation of bible-based holiness principle?

Those who drumbeat heritage are nominally Apostolics ...

To misquote my friend Ferd ...

"there is a very big difference between what is the new fangled PAJC and what was the light PAJC view of old."


Yes, both sides have evolved ... with 3 steppers making their circles smaller and smaller ... with continued in-fighting among each other ...

while PCIers have returned to their roots of open fellowship and seeking unity w/ the entire Body of Christ.

But I still love the posers.

Thank you for this post.

[aegsm76]

Is SDG the same poster as DA, DAII and Daniel Alicia?
That's what it appears from the posts, here.