Water baptism, can you agree with this statement?

[BrotherEastman]

Originally Posted by Encryptus

But if the blood is applied at baptism, and the blood in applied three times.

Lord dunk
Jesus dunk
Christ dunk

Pity the poor man whose pastor loses count! Only 2/3 saved

Can you read? If you can, tell me what Peter told the crowd on the day of Pentecost.

[BrotherEastman]

Originally Posted by Encryptus

Come on Easty when is the blood applied three times at baptism. One for each dunk?

Obviously, you cannot read. When did I say that the blood was applied to someone when they get baptized? Your a new poster and you can't even get it right.

Peter preached it, Paul preached it, Jesus taught it. It doesn't get any more simple than that.
It is mankind that makes things confusing, not God.
The essentiality of baptism has been debated ad nauseum on here and other threads. Does that change the Word of God?

NOPE!

[BrotherEastman]

Originally Posted by Encryptus

But the 3 steppers in here seem to imply Cornelius got the HG on credit.

Or that is what you assume what the so called "three steppers" believe. I'm sorry that Peters teaching is wrong to you.

[BrotherEastman]

Originally Posted by Daniel Alicea

His analogy is also faulty because all three applications happen at once. Not over a period of time ...

Lets see, I repented of my sins when I was 9, I then was baptized when I was 9, and a few months after baptism I recieved the HG. The blood was applied when I repented, and my sins that were repented of were remitted when I was baptized. I recieved the HG a few months later after the blood was applied. I do not know why it is so hard for you and crypty to understand the words of Peter.

[BrotherEastman]

Originally Posted by Encryptus

So they dunk three times real fast?

Sure crypty, if you say so.

[pelathais]

Quote:
Originally Posted by mizpeh
Thank you, Bishop. Here's the text from the Greek Stephanas text on Esword:

Joh 3:5 απεκριθη answered 611 V-ADI-3S ο the 3588 T-NSM ιησους Jesus 2424 N-NSM αμην Verily 281 HEB αμην verily 281 HEB λεγω I say 3004 V-PAI-1S σοι unto thee 4671 P-2DS εαν 1437 COND μη 3361 PRT-N τις a man 5100 X-NSM γεννηθη be born 1080 V-APS-3S εξ of 1537 PREP υδατος water 5204 N-GSN και and 2532 CONJ πνευματος the Spirit 4151 N-GSN ου 3756 PRT-N δυναται he cannot 1410 V-PNI-3S εισελθειν enter 1525 V-2AAN εις into 1519 PREP την 3588 T-ASF βασιλειαν kingdom 932 N-ASF του 3588 T-GSM θεου of God. 2316 N-GSM

It's clear there is no article before either water and Spirit. Most translations added the definite article 'the' before the word, Spirit.

Green's literal translation: Jesus answered, Truly, truly, I say to you, If one is not generated out of water and Spirit, he is not able to enter into the kingdom of God.

Originally Posted by tbpew

thank you mizpeh for providing the kind of engagement some posters take liberty to demand. You have presented a witness pertaining to John3:5 that IMO,is fully consistent with the wisdom from above that Jesus provided in John 12:24

Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except a corn of wheat fall into the ground and die, it abideth alone: but if it die, it bringeth forth much fruit

Death and burial is an inescapable precursor to newness of life. To deny or disregard such would be to invite double-mindedness and the unavoidable destination of a bottle that will burst.

The loss in such an end is so great, destroying the vessel and depriving others of the benefit of the contents.

hmmm... trying to step around the other discussions that are going on concurrently... thanks mizpeh and tbpew.

And remember, we already agree that baptism is essential, etc. I just repeat that because things like that seem to get lost in these threads.

My statement was that John 3:5 is not a verse that we can use to show that agreed upon essentiality. In the quotes above it seems that you both bring an a priori assumption into the reading of the John 3. As soon as water is mentioned you assume it means baptism. But break down the conversation itself as it develops and put yourself into the shoes of the perplexed Nicodemas for a moment.

Nicodemas begins the dialog by commenting that no one could do the miracles that Jesus had done, "except God be with Him." Instead of responding directly to Nicodemas' assertion - and openly professing His divine identity, Jesus says that you must be "born again" (or "from above). The phrase "born again" in the Greek is ambiguous; it can be understood two ways. Jesus (and especially John, by selecting this conversation as a highlight in his gospel) is presenting a fork in the road for both Nicodemas and the reader. Do we go with the meaning "again" or "above?"

Nicodemas goes with "again." "How can I enter again into my mother's womb...?" Nicodemas seems to show that what Jesus is saying is ridiculous. Nicodemas is fixated upon this world here below. He has, for whatever reasons, seemed to have eliminated the world "above" from his thinking. It's this type of thinking that Jesus wants to change. So he goes on and contrasts the things from "above" with the things from "below."

The phrase "water and Spirit" is one of those contrasts. Being born from the "water" of his mother's womb was needed- just to be sitting there Nicodemas obviously had to have been born of his mother. But Jesus wants him to look beyond the earthly and look up. He must be born from "above," that is by the Spirit.

How is one truly "born from above?" Well, as I said, that's the part we already agree upon, Acts 2:38.

Originally Posted by Daniel Alicea

Mizpeh usually ... Praxeas, at times, unless he tries to get you to chase a red herring, ... Steve Epley will engage you ... MBlume has some ammunition ... Coonskinner, when he chooses to play, which is rarely. The others repeat pet scriptures and allude to fanciful analogies and typologies ... While PhilJones and TBPew will try to wordsmith you to death but usually bring water pistols.

Nice try, Dan. You trying to get your earlier prophecy on the loss of the HG to be fulfilled? I thought only the devil tried to get folks to lose their HG!

Originally Posted by Darcie

Was that really necessary PP?

I really think it was right on point Darcie! I know he is your brother but he is the biggest user of the marginalize and trivialize tactic he accuses others of. He is a great guy but his approach to discussion of beliefs that men have held and do hold dear is reprehensible. Of course, he is not alone in that... but the facts are the facts.

Originally Posted by pelathais

hmmm... trying to step around the other discussions that are going on concurrently... thanks mizpeh and tbpew.

And remember, we already agree that baptism is essential, etc. I just repeat that because things like that seem to get lost in these threads.

My statement was that John 3:5 is not a verse that we can use to show that agreed upon essentiality. In the quotes above it seems that you both bring an a priori assumption into the reading of the John 3. As soon as water is mentioned you assume it means baptism. But break down the conversation itself as it develops and put yourself into the shoes of the perplexed Nicodemas for a moment.

Nicodemas begins the dialog by commenting that no one could do the miracles that Jesus had done, "except God be with Him." Instead of responding directly to Nicodemas' assertion - and openly professing His divine identity, Jesus says that you must be "born again" (or "from above). The phrase "born again" in the Greek is ambiguous; it can be understood two ways. Jesus (and especially John, by selecting this conversation as a highlight in his gospel) is presenting a fork in the road for both Nicodemas and the reader. Do we go with the meaning "again" or "above?"

Nicodemas goes with "again." "How can I enter again into my mother's womb...?" Nicodemas seems to show that what Jesus is saying is ridiculous. Nicodemas is fixated upon this world here below. He has, for whatever reasons, seemed to have eliminated the world "above" from his thinking. It's this type of thinking that Jesus wants to change. So he goes on and contrasts the things from "above" with the things from "below."

The phrase "water and Spirit" is one of those contrasts. Being born from the "water" of his mother's womb was needed- just to be sitting there Nicodemas obviously had to have been born of his mother. But Jesus wants him to look beyond the earthly and look up. He must be born from "above," that is by the Spirit.

How is one truly "born from above?" Well, as I said, that's the part we already agree upon, Acts 2:38.

Pel,

You and I may agree that baptism is essential but essential to WHAT? Essential to membership in your local assembly? Essential to become a voting member of your congregation?

You and I may even agree that baptism is essential for salvation but I assure you many of the others in this discussion DO NOT BELIEVE THAT!

For DA, J-ROC, Encryptus, Raven, and I am guessing you too, Baptism is just some extra-salvational weight of obligation that Jesus put on folks that serves no purpose in their lives!