Dear Kansas Preacher,

[bishoph]

Change is nothing to fear, rather welcomed and embraced, as long as it is proper change. It is one thing to accommodate change that enhances and propels us in the right direction, it is quite another to embellish change that diverts us from our course and or reverses our direction.

[mizpeh]

Originally Posted by bishoph

So many have stated their opinion about what the passing of this resolution means or does not mean to the future of the UPCI. However, as one who actually lived out a similar situation in an Apostolic organization that has 50+ years of foundation I can tell you that some of the predictions pale in comparison to what will really happen.

I personally sat on the National board of this organization and resisted the tide of compromise until, like the UPCI's reversal of its own principle, the org made a decision to change small things that resulted in monumental change. (Remember John warns us that it is a very small rudder that turns the ship.)

Today just 5 years later the organization which was nearly as conservative as the UPCI (harder in some areas) bears no resemblance of a sanctified body. Tragically the worst part is that a growing number of those who remain no longer believe nor teach the Biblical plan of salvation.

This is not what I have dreamed up, this is what I have watched happen in 5 short years. I think what we are forgetting is that when something has made its way into the foundation of any structure, to remove it places the structure as a whole in jeopardy. JMHO

What is the foundation of our faith in God? What makes us part of the body of Christ? We've been baptized in his name and and filled with his Spirit. 1 Cor 12:13, Acts 2:38. How does advertising on TV or even watching a g-rated show on TV affect our position in the body of Christ? The church I attend has been out of the UPC since 1992 and the basic tenets of the faith have not been compromised.

If part of the foundation of a structure based on Godly principles had human based principles intermixed as well, will not taking out some of the human based principles cause the structure to be more sound?

[bishoph]

Originally Posted by mizpeh

If part of the foundation of a structure based on Godly principles had human based principles intermixed as well, will not taking out some of the human based principles cause the structure to be more sound?

The bolded quote is where I think some of the problem lies. Many have looked at the TV prohibition as a human based principle when in fact it was put in place as an answer to protect the saints from erosion of Godly principles which were coming under attack through this medium. The church has always had the right to establish morality/moderation based upon current sinfulness of society as a whole.

The men who put the TV prohibition in place did so with prayer and a realization of its impact on the average person who would be impacted by its (TV) influence. It was not based on man made principle but rather to protect a Godly principle. Maybe it could be said mans rule placed to maintain Godly principle.

[chseeads]

Originally Posted by bishoph

The bolded quote is where I think some of the problem lies. Many have looked at the TV prohibition as a human based principle when in fact it was put in place as an answer to protect the saints from erosion of Godly principles which were coming under attack through this medium. The church has always had the right to establish morality/moderation based upon current sinfulness of society as a whole.

The men who put the TV prohibition in place did so with prayer and a realization of its impact on the average person who would be impacted by its (TV) influence. It was not based on man made principle but rather to protect a Godly principle. Maybe it could be said mans rule to maintain Godly principle.

How come nobody in the UPC prayed about the impact of the Internet the same way they did TV then? :sshhh

[BobDylan]

Originally Posted by mizpeh

I hope and pray that all the conservatives will prayerfully consider what you may be about to do. You don't have to compromise your convictions to remain in fellowship with those who hold to the basic tenets of your faith. A walk of love and tolerance will create a bridge between the things that divide you. I pray God will give you peace, guidance, and blessing in whatever decision you make.

One major problem is that just about every little thing divides conservatives... i.e. Christmas trees, fall parties, use of video and internet.... slits in the skirts, chopsticks in the hair, short-sleeves/long-sleeves.... hairbows, brown or colored stockings, colored or white shirts on the platform, the list goes on and on...

[pelathais]

Originally Posted by Daniel Alicea

I can understand, also, how difficult this must be on those who have invested their tears, sweat, finances, time and lives into the organization. I'm sure they will prayerfully make the proper decisions and do what their conscience dictates.

It is a difficult thing. You work your whole adult life investing in something and then it seems that you have to loose all of your labor. A lot of men went through this in 1992. I personally went through it several years later.

My only consolation was the knowledge that in the end, the Truth would triumph. We really have to take a view of things that is so large that our own lives and labors are puny and insignificant. Otherwise we run the risk of setting ourselves up for a continual parade of bitter disappointments.

[pelathais]

Originally Posted by BobDylan

One major problem is that just about every little thing divides conservatives... i.e. Christmas trees, fall parties, use of video and internet.... slits in the skirts, chopsticks in the hair, short-sleeves/long-sleeves.... hairbows, brown or colored stockings, colored or white shirts on the platform, the list goes on and on...

And the longer the list, the more likely it will be that you are "offended" again and again. Some people learn to actually feed off the offenses. Others wise up and grow spiritually. Still others are morose or embittered for years.

[Thad]

Originally Posted by BobDylan

One major problem is that just about every little thing divides conservatives... i.e. Christmas trees, fall parties, use of video and internet.... slits in the skirts, chopsticks in the hair, short-sleeves/long-sleeves.... hairbows, brown or colored stockings, colored or white shirts on the platform, the list goes on and on...

Now i already know that Benny or someone will come along and say I'm making this up but I promise on a stack of Bibles it is THE TRUTH! I am Calif. bred and can tell you all some Dozzies!
a neighboring church pastor made every Male in his church and school part their hair on the right. he taught that any other style was connected to a homosexual Hollywood spirit. okay, so one of the neighboring pastor's son attended his school and abided by the hair rule for the males BUT when he took his senior portrait, he comb his hair forward with that stylish little spike in the front. someone went and reported it to the pastor and he kicked him out the school just a few months before graduation. a huge fight then erupted between the 2 pastors and it got ugly !

we have another pastor that makes his son wear cowboy boots when he plays the piano so that he wont turn into a homo. I have it on tape him saying this. he said " Ill break every finger on his hands if he even looks like one".

[pelathais]

Originally Posted by Thad

Now i already know that Benny or someone will come along and say I'm making this up but I promise on a stack of Bibles it is THE TRUTH! I am Calif. bred and can tell you all some Dozzies!
a neighboring church pastor made every Male in his church and school part their hair on the right. he taught that any other style was connected to a homosexual Hollywood spirit. okay, so one of the neighboring pastor's sons atteded his school and abided by the hair rule for the males BUT when he took his senior portrait, he comb his hair forward with that stylish little spike in the front. someone went and reported it to the pastor and he kicked him out the school just a few months before graduation. a huge fight then erupted between the 2 pastors and it get ugly !

we have another pastor that makes his son wear cowboy boots when he plays the piano so that he wont turn into a homo. I have it on tape him saying this. he said " Ill break every finger on his hands if he even looks like one".

We are dealing with a lot of ignorance in our movement. Of course when you point out the errors in the "hair part" and the "cowboy pianoman" they and their ilk will immediately respond with some nonsense about how your position is "really pro-homosexual."

Miscreants often end up with a spectrum mindset. They put themselves on a spectrum as far from what they hate as they can. Anyone else who comes along and sees the world as being complex and 3 dimensional- well it's because they're on the "homo" side of the spectrum.

Thing is, if you've studied human behavior from a clinical perspective- these guys and their male dominance hierarchies are really patterned after the more ancient forms of homosexuality. They give me the willies when I'm around them - that same sick to my stomach feeling I get from the "gay pride" advocates.

I so long to be a part of something "normal." Something that I don't have to be ashamed of. Something truly Christian.

[Thad]

Originally Posted by pelathais

We are dealing with a lot of ignorance in our movement. Of course when you point out the errors in the "hair part" and the "cowboy pianoman" they and their ilk will immediately respond with some nonsense about how your position is "really pro-homosexual."

Miscreants often end up with a spectrum mindset. They put themselves on a spectrum as far from what they hate as they can. Anyone else who comes along and sees the world as being complex and 3 dimensional- well it's because they're on the "homo" side of the spectrum.

Thing is, if you've studied human behavior from a clinical perspective- these guys and their male dominance hierarchies are really patterned after the more ancient forms of homosexuality. They give me the willies when I'm around them - that same sick to my stomach feeling I get from the "gay pride" advocates.

I so long to be a part of something "normal." Something that I don't have to be ashamed of. Something truly Christian.

WOW i can't believe you posted that! are you sure you are ready for this??
BTW, I've never heard this before- can you expound in "laymen's terms" ha! i will say this, in my observation, the ones who sometimes preach the hardest against something are strugging themselves. preaching hard against it perhaps gives them a sense of assuarance or something not sure