Universal Salvation

[crakjak]

Originally Posted by Evang.Benincasa

Rom 10:14-17 "How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher? And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things! But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report? So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God."

CJ, that is pretty simple but please explain this scripture in realation to your doctrine.

This is a very powerful verse of scripture you have presented, which tells us an individual must hear the "good news" in order to enter into the life of Christ. I believe all will hear eventually.

[ManOfWord]

Originally Posted by crakjak

With all due respect MOW, I don't believed you have looked at UR, your statements here are very early sound bites of those that are only rationalizing the surface arguments.

Truth is, that I have looked at it. Not in depth. It doesn't really take me long to spot a fake. I'm not referring to you, but the doctrine itself. I am only stating my own observations, not those of others. I had someone recently tell me that they found something NEW in the Bible......it was UR. It's NOT new and it is NOT easily seen in the Bible, which is the first sign of something not being right.

As far as I know, it is NEVER dominated the church's theology or thinking. It has NEVER taken a strong hold or found preeminence. That says something to me and it should to others as well.

[Barb]

Originally Posted by crakjak

If you believe in endless torment. Please, show how billions of years of unbearable torment equals "just recompense" for a short life of sin. Take in to account that the condemned was born by no fault of his own, into a fallen world, with a highly developed deciever to decieve. Then take into account that Paul the apostle to the Gentiles never once threatens sinners with clarity of any threat of "endless" torment.

See ya, later.

Haven't read this whole thread, but rspectfully, CJ...this sounds like the same old Inclusive/Universalist doctrine Carlton Pearson and others have been spouting.

[Scott Hutchinson]

One of the the Universalists's points is they say that the punsihment of the wicked is corrective and not for retribution.
In other words they teach that the wicked are corrected and then join the redeemed ,after their correctional period is over.

[Steve Epley]

Originally Posted by Scott Hutchinson

One of the the Universalists's points is they say that the punsihment of the wicked is corrective and not for retribution.
In other words they teach that the wicked are corrected and then join the redeemed ,after their correctional period is over.

Yes that is without ONE verse to support this foolish idea.

So according to them if you tell someone to "Go to Hell" it is a good thing.

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by crakjak

"His master delivered him to the torturers until he should pay all. So My Father also will do to you" (Matt. 18.35).

"You will by no means get out of there till you have paid the last penny" (Matt. 5:26).

Does "till" and "until" support the concept of and unending hell or annihilation? Don't forget, "So will My Father also will do to you."

I am not suggesting that a person can be save w/o the blood? I presented these verses to show that Jesus, while indicating a "just recompense" for our debts did not preach eternal torment. The "till" and "until" are certainly not indicative of "endless."

Of course, this is a parable, but we should be able to draw some truths from Jesus' parables. And in this one his presents a "measurable punishment", surely you could conceded this clear fact. There no basis at all to assume "endless" from this story.

When there is no way for a person to ever pay it back, which I think is the emphasis, then the idea is forever. But the greater point, which I noted, was that the person has to pay back, and not the master through any forgiveness. Blood of Jesus can only be applied through God's forgiveness. No other way.

[Truthseeker]

Originally Posted by mfblume

There are those, like CrakJak, who believe everything ever damned will eventually be restored in salvation.

I strongly disagree with it, but let's discuss this. I want to tackle it and get into all the chapters that universal salvationists use.

They use Romans 5 and say that unless Christ's salvation restores EVERYONE, then Adam's sin was more powerful than Christ's redemption, since Adam made ALL MEN SINNERS.

Here's a question:

If he desires no man should perish, did God fail in perfoming his will?


That which he wills, will he not perform it?

[Truthseeker]

20 And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven.
KJV

Col 1:20

20 And God purposed that through ( by the service, the intervention of) Him [the Son] all things should be completely reconciled back to Himself, whether on earth or in heaven, as through Him, [the Father] made peace by means of the blood of His cross.
AMP



What does "ALL THINGS" mean when refering to being reconciled to himself?



2 Cor 5:19

19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.
KJV




Does this mean if he's "not imputing their trespasses unto them"



If God didn't reconcile the world unto himself, does it mean he failed?




John said "
John 1:29

29 The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world
KJV




"taketh away the sin of the world" ?????

[mizpeh]

Originally Posted by Truthseeker

Here's a question:

If he desires no man should perish, did God fail in perfoming his will?


That which he wills, will he not perform it?

Let me ask you a question as well. Was it God's will for the nation of Isreal to fall into sin and idolatry to the point He has to bring all the curses of the law upon them? His will was that Israel should be a shining light to the world of the true God and his righteousness. Who failed? Was it Israel or was it God?

I think it was the nation of Israel. They did what was right in their own sight and didn't obey God.

I would give the same answer to your question. Men failed not God. Men do not obey the will of God and because men reject God they will perish even though God wants everyone to be saved. This shows me that we have a free will. That God allows us to choose to serve him or not.

[Truthseeker]

Originally Posted by mizpeh

Let me ask you a question as well. Was it God's will for the nation of Isreal to fall into sin and idolatry to the point He has to bring all the curses of the law upon them? His will was that Israel should be a shining light to the world of the true God and his righteousness. Who failed? Was it Israel or was it God?

I think it was the nation of Israel. They did what was right in their own sight and didn't obey God.

I would give the same answer to your question. Men failed not God. Men do not obey the will of God and because men reject God they will perish even though God wants everyone to be saved. This shows me that we have a free will. That God allows us to choose to serve him or not.

Didn't sound like pharoah had a free will:

Rom 9:14-23

14 What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid.

15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.

16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.

17 For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.

18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.

19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?

20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?

21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?

22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:

23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,
KJV




Does the potter have power over the clay??

Rom 9:21

21 Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same mass (lump) one vessel for beauty and distinction and honorable use, and another for menial or ignoble and dishonorable use?
AMP