Historical References Regarding 1st Cent. Baptism

[larrylyates]

Originally Posted by Nitehawk013

My very good Friend has a book with quotes from a 1st century source. In it, they speak of the body baptizing in the titles according to Matthew 28.

The reality, is that prior to our having a canonized scripture, you would have had groups out there who perhaps ONLY had Matthew as fas as the gospels go. Hence they would have baptized as Matthew 28 instructs them. Later, once the canon was compiled it became IMO clear that Jesus Name baptism was the only scripturally endorsed means of proper baptism.

The problem with that view is it leaves the Apostles in the unenviable position of seeming to have ignored Jesus' words on the day of Pentecost, long before Matthew was written.

The fact is that Jesus gave them clear instructions and they followed those instruction to the letter by baptizing in the Name of Jesus. You rightly point out that what we find in Matthew 28 are titles. What is the singular Name, they describe?

[Nitehawk013]

I don't have any problem with it. It is fact. There were groups who baptized in the titles in the first century and before the church had more widespread access to more complete "canon" of scripture. It's right there to find in history whether many of my fellow OP's want to deny it or not. It isn't a problem to me at all.

You personally have a problem with it because of how YOU think it implicates the early Apostles and church fathers. And Jesus' words on Pentecost? Do you mean Peter's? Jesus ascended 10 days prior to Pentecost.

Nevertheless, I still have no issue with this. Assume Peter disciples someone. That man goes to another country and he disciples another man. This man is now once removed form the original. NOw this man comes upon a copy of Matthew, but not Luke or Acts. Now he discples another man. This new man is now twice removed from Peter, has likely never met Peter, and has only heard stories of Peter. He does however have a copy of Matthew which says baptize in the titles. If he takes the Sola Scriptura approach, Matthew beats rumors of Peter saying Baptize in Jesus name at Pentecost.

[larrylyates]

Originally Posted by Nitehawk013

I don't have any problem with it. It is fact. There were groups who baptized in the titles in the first century and before the church had more widespread access to more complete "canon" of scripture. It's right there to find in history whether many of my fellow OP's want to deny it or not. It isn't a problem to me at all.

You personally have a problem with it because of how YOU think it implicates the early Apostles and church fathers. And Jesus' words on Pentecost? Do you mean Peter's? Jesus ascended 10 days prior to Pentecost.

Nevertheless, I still have no issue with this. Assume Peter disciples someone. That man goes to another country and he disciples another man. This man is now once removed form the original. NOw this man comes upon a copy of Matthew, but not Luke or Acts. Now he discples another man. This new man is now twice removed from Peter, has likely never met Peter, and has only heard stories of Peter. He does however have a copy of Matthew which says baptize in the titles. If he takes the Sola Scriptura approach, Matthew beats rumors of Peter saying Baptize in Jesus name at Pentecost.

I misplaced my punctuation. It would be better phrased as 'on the day of Pentecost, they ignored Jesus' word." Sorry for the confusion.

[larrylyates]

Originally Posted by seekerman

You're avoiding the issue. Were you suggesting that Jesus name baptism one of the unalterable requirements for a person to be saved in oneness pentecostal theology? Or were the references you gave simply best practice for baptism but not necessary?

Not avoiding anything except a fruitless discussion. Consider it following Paul's advice to Timothy.
1 Timothy 6:20-21 (NASB)
20 O Timothy, guard what has been entrusted to you, avoiding worldly and empty chatter and the opposing arguments of what is falsely called “knowledge”— 21 which some have professed and thus gone astray from the faith.

[seekerman]

Originally Posted by larrylyates

Not avoiding anything except a fruitless discussion. Consider it following Paul's advice to Timothy.
1 Timothy 6:20-21 (NASB)
20 O Timothy, guard what has been entrusted to you, avoiding worldly and empty chatter and the opposing arguments of what is falsely called “knowledge”— 21 which some have professed and thus gone astray from the faith.

Yes, you're avoiding the issue. Once more....were you suggesting that Jesus name baptism is one of the unalterable requirements for a person to be saved in oneness pentecostal theology? Or were the references you gave simply best practice for baptism but not necessary?

[larrylyates]

Originally Posted by seekerman

Yes, you're avoiding the issue. Once more....were you suggesting that Jesus name baptism is one of the unalterable requirements for a person to be saved in oneness pentecostal theology? Or were the references you gave simply best practice for baptism but not necessary?

This is an absolute tenet of Apostolic Theology and the undeniable teaching of scripture.

Why would ANY true believer want to avoid being baptized in the only saving Name?

[seekerman]

Originally Posted by larrylyates

This is an absolute tenet of Apostolic Theology and the undeniable teaching of scripture.

Why would ANY true believer want to avoid being baptized in the only saving Name?

Why are you avoiding the issue? Were you suggesting that Jesus name baptism is one of the unalterable requirements for a person to be saved in oneness pentecostal theology? Or were the references you gave simply best practice for baptism but not necessary?

[larrylyates]

Originally Posted by larrylyates

This is an absolute tenet of Apostolic Theology and the undeniable teaching of scripture.

Why would ANY true believer want to avoid being baptized in the only saving Name?

Since the reformation days of Martin Luther, the Lord has brought a progressive revelation of truth to the church. This unfolding of restored understanding of himself and His Word is for the purpose of returning His Church to her original anointing, authority and mission. As God restores the foundational gifts and ministries there comes a shift in our understanding and doctrine.

What amazes me about the critics of the Apostolic Movement is their affirmation of progressive revelation on the one hand and their denial of it as it applies to Oneness Pentecostalism.

While there are no new revelations, there is restored understanding of the scriptures. Luther’s comprehension of salvation by faith was not a new revelation. It was there all the time, but the church had lost sight of it. God uses men such as this to call the church back to forgotten truths. We believe the reformation is not over. The greatest restoration is happening now!

What sets the Apostolic Church apart from the rest of Christendom is not merely its emphasis on Acts 2:38 salvation and worship of the One True and Living God in Jesus Christ but also a unique approach to scripture. Our actual goal as Christians is to be genuinely Apostolic. We strive to “weed out” traditions and doctrines of men which were added later. Basically, we try to take what Luther started to its logical conclusion, true biblical reformation. We see many doctrines and beliefs as not Apostolic, but as a later development. Even my learned seminary professors would agree with this, but they put much authority in church history. They see the goal of the Bible scholar/theologian to develop the seed left by the writers of the New Testament. They think it arrogant to even question the wisdom of the church fathers. We on the other hand see our job description as one of recovery of truth which has been lost or distorted, to “earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints” (Jude 3). We are at heart, restorationists, trying to help restore the Church to her original belief and power. Of course we don’t want to ignore what others have written or said about the Bible, but we understand this merely to be the thinking of fallible men. I believe that the church has gotten away from what the apostles taught in many respects and that we need to get it back. We need to stop seeing the church in Acts as in a “baby stage,” and start seeing it as the model upon which to base our belief and practice. Only when we return to New Testament patterns, principles and practice, will we experience true New Testament power.

[larrylyates]

Originally Posted by seekerman

Why are you avoiding the issue? Were you suggesting that Jesus name baptism is one of the unalterable requirements for a person to be saved in oneness pentecostal theology? Or were the references you gave simply best practice for baptism but not necessary?

I'm sorry I mistakenly thought I was clear. Let me try again.
This is an absolute tenet of Apostolic Theology and the undeniable teaching of scripture.

Why would ANY true believer want to avoid being baptized in the only saving Name?

[larrylyates]

Even in the First Century the slide into apostasy had already begun.

Colossians 2:8-10 (KJV)
8 Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.9 For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.10 And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power:

2 Peter 2:1 (NASB)
2 But false prophets also arose among the people, just as there will also be false teachers among you, who will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the Master who bought them, bringing swift destruction upon themselves.

Jude 1:3 (NASB)
3 Beloved, while I was making every effort to write you about our common salvation, I felt the necessity to write to you appealing that you contend earnestly for the faith which was once for all handed down to the saints.

In our quest for revival and restoration, we recognize that before we can fully experience New Testament power, we must first return to New Testament patterns, principles and priorities. When the patterns are right, the Glory of God will manifest and His power will be released. The early Believers "continued steadfastly in the Apostle's Doctrine, in fellowship, the breaking of bread and in prayers." (Acts 2:42). As God restores these apostolic truths to His Church today, He is laying a foundation that can be built upon securely.

We must acknowledge that God is neither explained by nor limited to any set of doctrinal beliefs or statements. There is as well the danger, as church history has shown, of men limiting themselves by such articles, becoming totally unprepared to advance in God when the light of recovered truth begins to shine. We see the result of this in the many denominations and organizations around us. The trend among some, however, of declaring doctrine to be unnecessary or unimportant, is absolutely contrary to scripture. The Bible is clear on the importance of doctrine. It must not only be sound, pure and scriptural, but it must also be obeyed.

All beliefs have their roots in various teachings, true or false. These doctrines, when believed and practiced, determine not only our actions, but also our character and ultimately our destiny. Many otherwise sincere people have been led into deception. Thus, it is essential for us to be fully established in the doctrines as set forth in the scriptures. When a believer is established in the Apostle's doctrine they will no longer be blown about by every wind of doctrine (Eph. 4:4) or become ensnared by the doctrines of demons (I Tim. 4:1).

—It does matter who and what we believe! --

(Titus 1:9,2:11; II Tim. 3; 14-17; I Tim. 4:6,13,16, 6:1-3)
Apostolic Doctrine
In this age of “easy believeism” what the world needs most is the reality of Jesus Christ and the true Gospel.
True Biblical Christianity is Pentecostal, Apostolic and Oneness.
We believe in the one everlasting True God who has revealed Himself as the Father in creation: through the Son in redemption; and as the Holy Ghost at work in the lives of believers. The basic and fundamental doctrine of most Apostolic Churches and organizations is the Bible standard of full salvation, which is repentance, baptism in water by immersion in the Name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and the baptism of the Holy Ghost with the evidence of speaking with other tongues as the Spirit gives the utterance.