Proof Of Soul Sleep

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by Michael The Disciple

Sorry Steve and Mike but Paul got THIS from THAT:

15: For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16: For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
18: Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

Also if one would simply think about verse 18.

He does not comfort them by saying "your loved ones are now in Heaven rejoicing at the throne".

Nope. Not one word about it. The only hope or comfort he gives them about the DEAD are the words he uses in verses 15-18. Just like Yeshua said. He will come again and receive us to himself that we may be always with him.

Oh what a great proof text it would be if Paul had told this Church what you all believe! But alas all thats there is what HE WROTE. So instead we place this in the soul sleep category where it belongs.

No, Paul did not get this from that. You are holding to a shallow old tradition, bro., in all due respect.

the same word translated as MANSIONS is translated ABODE in the same chapter of John 14!

Joh 14:2 KJV+ In1722 my3450 Father's3962 house3614 are1526 many4183 mansions:3438 if it were not1490 so, I would have told2036, 302 you.5213 I go4198 to prepare2090 a place5117 for you.5213

Joh 14:23 KJV+ Jesus2424 answered611 and2532 said2036 unto him,846 If1437 a man5100 love25 me,3165 he will keep5083 my3450 words:3056 and2532 my3450 Father3962 will love25 him,846 and2532 we will come2064 unto4314 him,846 and2532 make4160 our abode3438 with3844 him.846

WE are the MANSIONS or ABODES... once IN CHRIST, the Father's House. Where Christ IS, not WILL BE, is the actual words.

Joh 14:3 KJV And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.

Where was Christ? In the position of SONSHIP, housing the Father. He said WHERE I AM, before He ever left them!

[Michael The Disciple]

Originally Posted by mfblume

When Paul said absence from the Body means presence with the Lord, this proves there is and never was soul sleep.

Paul did not say absence from the body is to be present with the Lord. He said he was WILLING TO BE ABSENT FROM THE BODY AND PRESENT WITH THE LORD.

8: We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.
9: Wherefore we labour, that, whether present or absent, we may be accepted of him.
10: For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad. 2 Cor. 5:8-10

Pauls teaching is we labor to be accepted by Yeshua. Look at the context of WHEN.

Is our spirit rejoicing in Heaven for hundreds of years without knowing whether it has been accepted by God? What if in your belief the things that were done in the flesh were evil? Does that Spirit then have to descend and go to Hell?

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by Michael The Disciple

Paul did not say absence from the body is to be present with the Lord. He said he was WILLING TO BE ABSENT FROM THE BODY AND PRESENT WITH THE LORD.

8: We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.
9: Wherefore we labour, that, whether present or absent, we may be accepted of him.
10: For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad. 2 Cor. 5:8-10

He would not be wiling to experience something if it was not possible. The context shows that Paul believed death would cause absence from his body, and in turn, he would be present with the Lord. He treated it as an actual choice, not wishful thinking.

Pauls teaching is we labor to be accepted by Yeshua. Look at the context of WHEN.

Is our spirit rejoicing in Heaven for hundreds of years without knowing whether it has been accepted by God?

It is not saying anything like that, in my view. It is saying that Paul wished in his then-present state of being in body to be absent from the body and be with the Lord. He laboured IN THE BODY, so that he would be acceptable to Christ whether remaining in the body and continuing to work or absent from the body.

He said that being at home in the body is absence from the Lord. So it only stands to contextual reason that if he is absent from the body he is THEN present with the Lord.

2Co 5:6-9 KJV Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord: (7) (For we walk by faith, not by sight (8) We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord. (9) Wherefore we labour, that, whether present or absent, we may be accepted of him.


He said those are the only two options. He did not leave anything open for a third one of being absent from the body for soul sleeping, etc. The contextual flow of language is that one is present with the Lord when absent from the body according to verse 8 BECAUSE Paul already said, "whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord."

What if in your belief the things that were done in the flesh were evil? Does that Spirit then have to descend and go to Hell?

Of course. Yes. Consciously.

In John 14, why did Christ pray that WHERE HE WAS, they would be??? He was standing right there with the disciples, and he did not say WHERE HE WILL BE, he prayed they would also be, as though it was future tense. So, if he stood there with them physically and said, WHERE I AM, then He must have been speaking of a status position, as Bro Epley said.

[mfblume]

No insult intended, but many believers need to get themselves a more modern translation of the Bible, because they are obviously messing up the context when they misread the version they are reading.

Soul sleep is simply nullified in 2 Cor 5.

[Michael The Disciple]

I did not make my point clear enough Mike.

I asked:

What if in your belief the things that were done in the flesh were evil? Does that Spirit then have to descend and go to Hell?

You said:

Of course. Yes. Consciously.

My fault. What I was getting at is since the judgment seat of Christ will be for some souls several thousand years from the time they died they are supposed to be in Heaven in bliss without yet being judged for what they did in the flesh all that time?

Suppose THEN when the judgment seat of Christ convenes and then they ARE judged what if there works are found to be bad? Will they then have to leave the glory of Heaven they have been living in and go to Hell where they should have been anyway?

[Michael The Disciple]

Originally Posted by mfblume

No insult intended, but many believers need to get themselves a more modern translation of the Bible, because they are obviously messing up the context when they misread the version they are reading.

Soul sleep is simply nullified in 2 Cor 5.

So until modern versions came along soul sleep doctrine was ok?

Anyway lets once again go though the context of 2 Cor. 5.

This is often used against soul sleep teaching. However it fails to take the CONTEXT of 2 Cor.

Paul teaches:

1: For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.
2: For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven:
3: If so be that being clothed we shall not be found naked.
4: For we that are in this tabernacle do groan, being burdened: not for that we would be unclothed, but clothed upon, that mortality might be swallowed up of life.
5: Now he that hath wrought us for the selfsame thing is God, who also hath given unto us the earnest of the Spirit.
6: Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord:
7: (For we walk by faith, not by sight
8: We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.
9: Wherefore we labour, that, whether present or absent, we may be accepted of him.
10: For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad. 2 Cor. 5:1-10

The "instant Heaven" doctrine would grant mortality being swallowed up of life at the moment of death.

However the VERY SAME PAUL tells us EXACTLY when mortality will be swallowed up of life. Exactly when this MORTAL will put on IMMORTALITY

51: Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
52: In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
53: For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
54: So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.
55: O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory? 1 Cor. 15:51-55.

So Paul was giving his doctrine to the very same group of people. The Corinthians. There could have been no misunderstanding on their part.

Immortality is given at the last trump at Christs coming.

When he says we are willing to be absent from the body and present with the Lord observe the context. He says "if our bodies are dissolved" we have another body eternal in the Heavens.

It is clear from his PREVIOUS TEACHING to them that the NEW BODY OF IMMORTALITY is given not at death but at the RESURRECTION OF THE DEAD taught by him in 1 Cor. 15.

So when we are absent FROM THE BODY THAT IS DISSOLVED then (at resurrection) we can take on the new immortal body he speaks of that is eternal in the Heavens.

It cannot be overlooked that Pauls belief was that eternal life was synonomous with IMMORTALITY.

To the Romans:

6: Who will render to every man according to his deeds:
7: To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life: Romans 2:6-7

Eternal life is the same as IMMORTALITY. Immortality is plainly given at the RESURRECTION.

52: In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
53: For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
54: So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.
55: O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory? 1 Cor. 15:51-55.

So the "instant Heaven" doctrine disappears from 2 Cor. 5:8 when its CONTEXT is considered.

What does Paul mean by asking the question "Oh death where is thy sting" and "Oh grave where is thy victory".

The sting of death and the victory over the grave is so plainly LINKED TO THE RESURRECTION.

The erroneous doctrine of eternal life apart from the resurrectionhas no meaning in this light. Until then death has the victory according to Paul.

Christians today only think the grave is already defeated. It is something taken by faith. Yet its reality is NOT UNTIL THIS:

54: So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.
55: O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory? 1 Cor. 15:51-55.

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by Michael The Disciple

I did not make my point clear enough Mike.

I asked:

My fault. What I was getting at is since the judgment seat of Christ will be for some souls several thousand years from the time they died they are supposed to be in Heaven in bliss without yet being judged for what they did in the flesh all that time?

Okay, I get what you are saying now. Thanks.

The white throne is not to decide if saints are saved or not. That is already settled. Yes, they are saved, long before the white throne judgment. They do not attend the white throne judgment to enter glory with Christ. Our sins have gone before us, since we believed, whereas others' sins follow them.

Suppose THEN when the judgment seat of Christ convenes and then they ARE judged what if there works are found to be bad? Will they then have to leave the glory of Heaven they have been living in and go to Hell where they should have been anyway?

The judgment seat of Christ is for rewards for those saved, since the saints saved are not judged to see if they are saved. We are only judged according to our works for the sake of rewards or lack thereof, not to enter heaven or not.

Paul spoke of the white throne in referring to judgment for the deeds done in the body. But this is not a judgment for heaven or hell. So, no, the spirit of the saved believer who lacks deeds does not go to hell. Christ spoke of those for whom He will be ashamed before His Father, and those for whom He will be proud. Neither are lost, though. It's just that some did little or nothing for the Kingdom except serve as part of the Sunday Church furniture.

This acceptance of the soul is not acceptance into glory but acceptance to receive great rewards.

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by Michael The Disciple

So until modern versions came along soul sleep doctrine was ok?

No. The way you misunderstood my statement is a perfect example of what I was saying. I think you misunderstand biblical statements, and thereby require a more modern english rendering of the passages so you do not misunderstand them.

Some get by fine with Old English, KJV. Others do not.

The KJV is great! I love it! But some folks are messed up by it and misread it due to its archaic language.

So, you are correct in your words above FOR SOME PEOPLE who misread the KJV.

The KJV is right! But if you misread it, you get a wrong idea.

Soul sleep was always false doctrine.

[Michael The Disciple]

Mike said:

The judgment seat of Christ is for rewards for those saved, since the saints saved are not judged to see if they are saved. We are only judged according to our works for the sake of rewards or lack thereof, not to enter heaven or not.

Paul spoke of the white throne in referring to judgment for the deeds done in the body. But this is not a judgment for heaven or hell. So, no, the spirit of the saved believer who lacks deeds does not go to hell. Christ spoke of those for whom He will be ashamed before His Father, and those for whom He will be proud. Neither are lost, though. It's just that some did little or nothing for the Kingdom except serve as part of the Sunday Church furniture.

This acceptance of the soul is not acceptance into glory but acceptance to receive great rewards.

This is contrary to the letter and intent of Pauls words in 2 Cor. 5:

8: We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.
9: Wherefore we labour, that, whether present or absent, we may be accepted of him.
10: For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.
11: Knowing therefore the terror of the Lord, we persuade men; but we are made manifest unto God; and I trust also are made manifest in your consciences. 2 Cor. 5:8-11

Verse 9 says the reason we labor is to be ACCEPTED OF HIM.

Verse 10 tells WHEN that happens one way or the other.

Verse 11 warns Believers of the TERROR OF THE LORD.

Why warn them about the TERROR OF THE LORD if they are going to be accepted having done nothing for the kingdom? Especially when Paul said he LABORED TO BE ACCEPTED of the Lord. Not labored for rewards.

[mfblume]

Anyway lets once again go though the context of 2 Cor. 5.

This is often used against soul sleep teaching. However it fails to take the CONTEXT of 2 Cor.

Paul teaches:

1: For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.
2: For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven:
3: If so be that being clothed we shall not be found naked.
4: For we that are in this tabernacle do groan, being burdened: not for that we would be unclothed, but clothed upon, that mortality might be swallowed up of life.
5: Now he that hath wrought us for the selfsame thing is God, who also hath given unto us the earnest of the Spirit.
6: Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord:
7: (For we walk by faith, not by sight
8: We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.
9: Wherefore we labour, that, whether present or absent, we may be accepted of him.
10: For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad. 2 Cor. 5:1-10

The "instant Heaven" doctrine would grant mortality being swallowed up of life at the moment of death.

No no no. Mortality and life is speaking about the BODY ALONE. the entire chapter is about THE BODY. THE TABERNACLE of mortal flesh contrasted from the HOUSE of immortal flesh.

The SUBJECT of the passage is the PHYSICAL BODY.

However the VERY SAME PAUL tells us EXACTLY when mortality will be swallowed up of life. Exactly when this MORTAL will put on IMMORTALITY

51: Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
52: In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
53: For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
54: So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.
55: O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory? 1 Cor. 15:51-55.

Correct. And that is not instant heaven FOR THE BODY, but 2 Cor 5 speaks of instant heaven FOR THE SOUL AND SPIRIT ALONE. The body is the subject of both 1 Cor 15 and 2 Cor 5. We must read them together.

The reason 2 Cor 5 says we are NAKED without the body is because the soul and spirit of a person BELONG IN A BODY. And while ABSENT FROM THE BODY, the soul and spirit is naked.

There would be no such thing as being absent from the body if you were correct. This shows you misread the context. Absence from the body is a state of NAKEDNESS. And this is the case for however long after death the coming of the Lord is.

MORTAL Flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom. So the BODY shall be changed to an immortal one. But in the meantime, after salvation if one dies before the rapture, ONE IS NAKED without a body.

If you read 2 Cor 5 carefully, you will find this is what Paul said.

Because it is not God's will for us to be naked without a body, He has promised us that we shall be CLOTHED UPON at the time of the rapture with a HOUSE that is IMMORTAL FLESH. But in the meantime, Paul knew that his death would cause him to be absent from the body, rendering him NAKED, which he preferred even though he knew that Christ's coming would grant him an immortal HOUSE so that he would not be naked. But should he die before the Lord come, being with the Lord was awesome enough to be absent from and naked of his body!

Immortality is given at the last trump at Christs coming.

...FOR THE BODY, though. Not the soul nor spirit. Our souls and spirits are ALREADY IMMORTAL since salvation.

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