Elder = Lay Pastor?

[Michael The Disciple]

Originally Posted by Daniel Alicea

It seems to fall in line w/ Simson's model of church leadership ... the pastors ... i.e. James in Jerusalem .... oversaw elders .... in their home churches.

Where do we see Pastors overseeing Elders in the New Testament Church? Where is the SCRIPTURAL REFERENCE that distinguishes the two? James is called an Apostle not an Elder.

[SDG]

Originally Posted by Michael The Disciple

Where do we see Pastors overseeing Elders in the New Testament Church? Where is the SCRIPTURAL REFERENCE that distinguishes the two? James is called an Apostle not an Elder.

I wonder what Paul meant when he said if someone is sick call on the elders of the church ... I doubt he was telling Timothy to call his pastor buddies ...

[Michael The Disciple]

Originally Posted by Daniel Alicea

I wonder what Paul meant when he said if someone is sick call on the elders of the church ... I doubt he was telling Timothy to call his pastor buddies ...

Why is there no mention of the word "Pastor" in the New Testament? If you say there is please give the scripture where you found it. Thanks, Mike

Originally Posted by Michael The Disciple

Why is there no mention of the word "Pastor" in the New Testament? If you say there is please give the scripture where you found it. Thanks, Mike

Ephesians 4:11.

Originally Posted by Michael The Disciple

Where do we see Pastors overseeing Elders in the New Testament Church? Where is the SCRIPTURAL REFERENCE that distinguishes the two? James is called an Apostle not an Elder.

Was James (the Lord's half-brother and head of the Jerusalem church) an apostle? I really don't think he was. There do appear to be two kinds of elders: leaders in the church and an overseeing elder or bishop who would have been over the other elders.

[RevDWW]

You want a great example of a Pastor??? Look no futhur than Jesus.......

Hebrews 13:20 - 21 (KJV) 20 Now the God of peace, that brought again from the dead our Lord Jesus, that great shepherd of the sheep, through the blood of the everlasting covenant,
21 Make you perfect in every good work to do his will, working in you that which is wellpleasing in his sight, through Jesus Christ; to whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen

1 Peter 2:20 - 25 (KJV) 20 For what glory is it, if, when ye be buffeted for your faults, ye shall take it patiently? but if, when ye do well, and suffer for it, ye take it patiently, this is acceptable with God.
21 For even hereunto were ye called: because Christ also suffered for us, leaving us an example, that ye should follow his steps:
22 Who did no sin, neither was guile found in his mouth:
23 Who, when he was reviled, reviled not again; when he suffered, he threatened not; but committed himself to him that judgeth righteously:
24 Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed.
25 For ye were as sheep going astray; but are now returned unto the Shepherd and Bishop of your souls.

The word "shepherd" here is translated from the same greek word that Pastor comes from.

[SDG]

Originally Posted by Chan

There do appear to be two kinds of elders: leaders in the church and an overseeing elder or bishop who would have been over the other elders.

Care to elaborate more on this ???

Originally Posted by RevDWW

You want a great example of a Pastor??? Look no futhur than Jesus.......





The word "shepherd" here is translated from the same greek word that Pastor comes from.

That has nothing to do with the topic of this thread. Go back and read the earliest posts to see what this is about.

Originally Posted by Daniel Alicea

Care to elaborate more on this ???

Look at the Greek words translated "elder" or "elders" in the New Testament:

presbuterion

1. body of elders, presbytery, senate, council

1. of the Jewish elders
2. of the elders of any body (assembly) of Christians

presbuteros

1. elder, of age,

1. 1. the elder of two people
   2. advanced in life, an elder, a senior
      1. forefathers
2. a term of rank or office
   1. among the Jews
      1. members of the great council or Sanhedrin (because in early times the rulers of the people, judges, etc., were selected from elderly men)
      2. of those who in separate cities managed public affairs and administered justice
   2. among the Christians, those who presided over the assemblies (or churches) The NT uses the term bishop, elders, and presbyters interchangeably
   3. the twenty four members of the heavenly Sanhedrin or court seated on thrones around the throne of God

Then there's the bishop - the episkopos:

1. an overseer

1. a man charged with the duty of seeing that things to be done by others are done rightly, any curator, guardian or superintendent
2. the superintendent, elder, or overseer of a Christian church

An alternative form is episkope:

1. investigation, inspection, visitation

1. that act by which God looks into and searches out the ways, deeds character, of men, in order to adjudge them their lot accordingly, whether joyous or sad
2. oversight
   1. overseership, office, charge, the office of an elder
   2. the overseer or presiding officers of a Christian church

Now, compare this with the Greek word for pastor:

Poimen

1. a herdsman, esp. a shepherd
   1. in the parable, he to whose care and control others have committed themselves, and whose precepts they follow
2. metaph.
   1. the presiding officer, manager, director, of any assembly: so of Christ the Head of the church
      1. of the overseers of the Christian assemblies
      2. of kings and princes