Elder = Lay Pastor?

I'm aware that some might argue equating elders in the New Testament with pastors, and I'm not entirely sure I would disagree with that (though I can also see equating the New Testament "bishop" or "overseeing elder" with the pastor and equating other elders with leadership in the church without them being pastors). Yesterday after the service, the voting members of the congregation at New Life Assembly of God in Buffalo, NY voted in two men to serve as elders. Our pastor referred to them as lay pastors and, in fact, in the previous few weeks, he had made it a point of saying that those voted in would be considered pastors and made it a point of saying "We" (speaking for the congregation) consider elders to be pastors. He claimed there was scriptural support for this but he didn't provide any.

Anyway, the two men voted into these positions yesterday are not ordained ministers and do not have formal theological training (for those who might argue that neither did the Apostles, one could consider the time the spent learning directly from Jesus to be formal theological training). One of them doesn't think it's a priority for his daughters to do the scripture memorization or the homework that is assigned in Sunday School. He has a Pentecostal background and went through David Wilkerson's discipleship ministry at Times Square Church shortly after he came to Christ. The other makes sure his daughter is immersed in the scriptures and, consequently, the daughter far surpasses her Sunday School classmates. He teaches from the pulpit (as opposed to preaching) and uses the New Revised Standard Version of the Bible, which is a liberal Bible translation produced by the National Council of Churches.

I'm not sure what to think of this but part of me is uncomfortable with this development.

I'd like your opinions about whether elder is to be equated with pastor in the New Testament.

[Michael The Disciple]

Very little info is given about Pastors. Much more on Elders. Yes a Pastor is an Elder.

23: And when they had ordained them elders in every church, and had prayed with fasting, they commended them to the Lord, on whom they believed. Acts 14:23

Why were not Pastors ordained? Because they are the same thing.

What are the qualifications of a Pastor if they are not Elders? If they are separate things there is no qualifications required of them in the New Testament.

[Digging4Truth]

I do not see there being a laity/priest type division.

To me we are all one body... some minister to the body as shepherds... some as teachers... some as apostles...some as prophets... some as evangelists....

There are those who are elders... wise... seasoned... they are our mentors and help lead us in our walk with the Lord.

But I don't see where there are one group who are "laity" and another group who are the ministry.

Originally Posted by Michael The Disciple

Very little info is given about Pastors. Much more on Elders. Yes a Pastor is an Elder.

23: And when they had ordained them elders in every church, and had prayed with fasting, they commended them to the Lord, on whom they believed. Acts 14:23

Why were not Pastors ordained? Because they are the same thing.

What are the qualifications of a Pastor if they are not Elders? If they are separate things there is no qualifications required of them in the New Testament.

But is every elder a pastor? I agree that the office of bishop (overseeing elder) is that of the pastor but I'm not sure that every elder is automatically a pastor.

Originally Posted by Digging4Truth

I do not see there being a laity/priest type division.

I agree.

To me we are all one body... some minister to the body as shepherds... some as teachers... some as apostles...some as prophets... some as evangelists....

There are those who are elders... wise... seasoned... they are our mentors and help lead us in our walk with the Lord.

But I don't see where there are one group who are "laity" and another group who are the ministry.

We're not really talking about laity vs. ministry (though my pastor did refer to these new elders as "lay pastors"), we're talking about whether the Biblical leadership role of elder is the same as the Biblical role of pastor.

[SDG]

In his book "Houses that Change the World" Wolgang Simson proposes that elders were the leaders of home churches prevalent during the primitive Apostolic church

... in some ways I guess this is similar to what your pastor suggests - "lay pastors".

He states the order of leadership as follows:

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Three areas of responsibility in the Church

Rather then to develop three layers of hierarchical ”leadership levels”, housechurches are organically maintained and multiplied through the ministry of three types of specially gifted people:

1. Elders. The housechurches are led by elders, whose function is to father or mother the church. They bring redeemed wisdom to the church, overseeing the flock like a father oversees his children, showing them how to live, and add authenticity through a proven family track record and balanced and mature lifestyle.

2. Five fold ministers. The elders are equipped and trained by people who have been called by God for one of the five-fold ministries, apostles, prophets, evangelists, pastors and teachers. Those ministers circulate within the housechurches ”from house to house” and function as a spiritual blood circulating system nurturing all housechurches with the necessary elements to become or remain healthy and therefore multiply. Those ministries are like sinews and joints, linking the various housechurches together to be a whole system. Their ministry is transcending the individual housechurch and serve the Body of Christ like a spiritual gene pool, where the housechurches of an area or a region can draw upon, and sometimes even goes beyond that.

3. Apostolic fathers. Those spiritual equippers of the five fold ministry are relating to a third group of what I call ”apostolic fathers”, people with an apostolic and prophetic gifting plus a special calling and charisma from God for a city, a region or a nation. Those apostolic fathers, usually recognizable by the almost unbearable agony and spiritual pain they bear for a place, a city, a nation or a people group (Gal 2:7-9), become the local backbone, the regional or national ”pillars of faith”, anchoring the whole movement of housechurches locally and being responsible for celebrations and the city-church that will emerge. Since they usually have a true kingdom mentality, a broken spirit because of the spiritual burden they carry, they are least viable to build a massive movement and kingdom around themselves, but truly function as serving all - and therefore leading all (Mk 9:35). The deacons can be seen as functioning together with the elders (Phil 1:1), but also as the secretaries and assistants of those apostolic fathers, taking care of administrative needs and social aspects, and keeping the hands free for the apostles to do their work (Acts 6).

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If you would like to read his thesis in further detail ....

Click on the following link:

http://respiracreative.com/htctw.pdf

[Michael The Disciple]

Originally Posted by Chan

But is every elder a pastor? I agree that the office of bishop (overseeing elder) is that of the pastor but I'm not sure that every elder is automatically a pastor.

Short of time for the discussion at the moment. Why not do this. Look at the internal evidence in the New Testament as to what a Pastor is and does.

The word "Pastor" must be in the text. What is a Pastor according to the New Testament?

[Digging4Truth]

DA... Got that book... Love it

[SDG]

Originally Posted by Digging4Truth

DA... Got that book... Love it

The book is groundbreaking .... as are the "Fifteen Theses towards a Re-Incarnation of Church" that he provides in the book ...

It has opened my eyes in many ways.