Universal Salvation

[crakjak]

Originally Posted by Michael The Disciple

You could not be more wrong. It is exactly the opposite. When God destroys the wicked in the lake of fire he is fulfilling the very thing he designed them for.

Romans 9:17-23

17: For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.
18: Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.
19: Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?
20: Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?
21: Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?
22: What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:
23: And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,

So mans will is not triumphing over the glorious will of YAH. Those who are fitted for destruction unto destruction they shall go.

You do err, not knowing the scripture, and interpreting scripture to make God to be tyrannical monster, rather than a loving Heavenly Father. Your interpretions, "maligns God's character before the world." I Cor. 13.8 "Love never fails,"

These scriptures are hyperbolic descriptions of God's purposes for men on the earth and in NO way is describing man's ultimate end.

[Coffee99]

Originally Posted by Michael The Disciple

You could not be more wrong. It is exactly the opposite. When God destroys the wicked in the lake of fire he is fulfilling the very thing he designed them for....

Wow! Are you saying God created some just so He could have people to destroy?

[crakjak]

Originally Posted by Coffee99

Wow! Are you saying God created some just so He could have people to destroy?

That is the bottom line in some traditional teaching. It is quite an extraordinary, considering what Jesus said He came to do.

(Luke 19.10;Mt.18.11; 1Jn. 3.8) "The Son of Man has come to seek and to save that which was lost. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that He might destroy the works of the devil."

Quoting from Is. 61:2a:
"The Spirit of the Lord is upon Me, because He has anointed Me to preach the gospel to the poor; He has sent Me to heal the brokenhearted, to proclaim liberty to the captives and recovery of sight to the blind, to set at liberty those who are oppressed; to proclaim the acceptable year of the Lord..."(Luke 4.18)

[Praxeas]

Originally Posted by crakjak

Thanks Bro. Blume, let's to it. How about this just to get it started, this is going to be fun, because when folks honestly look at all the evidence UR is difficult to deny.

(Rev. 20.11) Records White Throne Judgment, (Rev. 21.9)The New Jerusalem, then (Rev. 22.2) "In the middle of its street, and on either side of the river, was the tree of life...yielding its fruit EVERY month. The leaves of the tree for the HEALING of the nations."

Apparently, the nations (peoples) are still being saved.

It seems God's purpose of purging, correcting and purifying continues. Chapter 21 says the gates of the city will never be closed, and that the kings of the earth will come into the city. Chapter 22.15 says there are "dogs and sorcerers and sexually immoral and murders and idolaters, and whoever loves and practices a lie", that are still in need of salvation, they are not in some hellhole.

The gates stay open, there are sinners outside and there are leaves for their healing available, the implication is that salvation is still in process. These facts also seem to support ultimate reconciliation for all.

Of course, if you are preterist, this is symbolism for the New Covenant age, which I tend to agree with. But it is problem for most, believers in endless torment.

Of course when folks honestly look at the counter arguments and the scriptures it's really hard to come to the UR conclusion :-)

[crakjak]

Originally Posted by Praxeas

Of course when folks honestly look at the counter arguments and the scriptures it's really hard to come to the UR conclusion :-)

Hello, Praxeas I was just wondering when you would join in.

[Praxeas]

Originally Posted by crakjak

If you believe in endless torment. Please, show how billions of years of unbearable torment equals "just recompense" for a short life of sin. Take in to account that the condemned was born by no fault of his own, into a fallen world, with a highly developed deciever to decieve. Then take into account that Paul the apostle to the Gentiles never once threatens sinners with clarity of any threat of "endless" torment.

See ya, later.

In other words, go outside the bible and use philosophical arguments to defend a position you haven't even said you believed in yet. Thus the logical fallacy train gets a rollin

[Praxeas]

Originally Posted by crakjak

Hello, Praxeas I was just wondering when you would join in.

lol..I was thinking of the first verses you posted concerning the tree. Interesting verse...it's actually the leaves that bring healing and not the fruit. MFs take is interesting...but does this verse apply to current nations of people living at this time?

Also consider

Rev 22:11 Let the evildoer still do evil, and the filthy still be filthy, and the righteous still do right, and the holy still be holy."

The TOL is only for those that washed their robes (symbolic of being saved by the blood of Jesus)

Rev 22:14 Blessed are those who wash their robes, so that they may have the right to the tree of life and that they may enter the city by the gates.

Out side the city
Rev 22:15 Outside are the dogs and sorcerers and the sexually immoral and murderers and idolaters, and everyone who loves and practices falsehood.

Consider this last warning
Rev 22:19 and if anyone takes away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God will take away his share in the tree of life and in the holy city, which are described in this book.

[crakjak]

Originally Posted by Praxeas

In other words, go outside the bible and use philosophical arguments to defend a position you haven't even said you believed in yet. Thus the logical fallacy train gets a rollin

I don't know if Bro. Blume believes in eternal torment. And my questions are reasonable questions for someone considering this subject. Care to take on some of the questions, instead of just trying to direct the argument into your comfort zone? Obfuscate the issue would you?

[RevDWW]

Originally Posted by crakjak

[B]
(Rev. 20.11) Records White Throne Judgment, (Rev. 21.9)The New Jerusalem, then (Rev. 22.2) "In the middle of its street, and on either side of the river, was the tree of life...yielding its fruit EVERY month. The leaves of the tree for the HEALING of the nations."

Apparently, the nations (peoples) are still being saved.

Acts 10:34 - 35 (KJV)
34 Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons:
35 But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him.

Perhaps "the nations" refers to those that from every nation that fear Him.....
Note there are parameters for being accepted with him......

[crakjak]

Originally Posted by Praxeas

lol..I was thinking of the first verses you posted concerning the tree. Interesting verse...it's actually the leaves that bring healing and not the fruit. MFs take is interesting...but does this verse apply to current nations of people living at this time?

Also consider

Rev 22:11 Let the evildoer still do evil, and the filthy still be filthy, and the righteous still do right, and the holy still be holy."

The TOL is only for those that washed their robes (symbolic of being saved by the blood of Jesus)

Rev 22:14 Blessed are those who wash their robes, so that they may have the right to the tree of life and that they may enter the city by the gates.

Out side the city
Rev 22:15 Outside are the dogs and sorcerers and the sexually immoral and murderers and idolaters, and everyone who loves and practices falsehood.

Consider this last warning
Rev 22:19 and if anyone takes away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God will take away his share in the tree of life and in the holy city, which are described in this book.

Let's throw this in the mix, Rev.22.15 mentions the dogs and sorcerers, etc outside the city. Then in verse 17, "...the Spirit and the bride say, "Come!" And let him who thirst come. Whoever desires, let him take of the water of life freely." So apparently, after all is said and done thru all the Revelation, the Spirit is still saying "Come!"

This doesn't seem to fit the eternally lost timeline, this is after the Great White Throne judgment, after the coming of the New Jerusalem. Why are those dogs not in the pit or the lake?

These are some of the things in scripture that caused me to study and has led to my current position.