Witch of Endor

[shag]

Have any of you studied this in depth?

Did she really bring up Samuel?

[Tithesmeister]

Interesting. It sure seems that she did. I asked a preacher friend about this very thing one time. His response was that the witch brought up Samuel’s familiar spirit but not necessarily Samuel. To me that’s not how it reads.

[Evang.Benincasa]

The writer of 1st Samuel believed the Pythonese “soothsayer” called up the actual Samuel.

[Esaias]

1 Samuel 28:7 KJV
Then said Saul unto his servants, Seek me a woman that hath a familiar spirit, that I may go to her, and enquire of her. And his servants said to him, Behold, there is a woman that hath a familiar spirit at Endor.

1 Samuel 28:8 KJV
And Saul disguised himself, and put on other raiment, and he went, and two men with him, and they came to the woman by night: and he said, I pray thee, divine unto me by the familiar spirit, and bring me him up, whom I shall name unto thee.

A few remarks:

1. The woman had a familiar spirit, that is, a demon.
2. The communication with Samuel was to take place via the demon. Saul would ask, the woman has her visions or whatever, then she reports back to Saul. Everything is happening in the witch's trance state and is being reported by her to Saul.
3. Does it not seem strange that a possessed witch has the power to raise the dead?

My conclusion: Samuel was dead and stayed dead, the woman had a demon, and the events are part of Saul's downfall.

See also:

1 Kings 22:19-23 KJV
And he said, Hear thou therefore the word of the Lord : I saw the Lord sitting on his throne, and all the host of heaven standing by him on his right hand and on his left. [20] And the Lord said, Who shall persuade Ahab, that he may go up and fall at Ramoth-gilead? And one said on this manner, and another said on that manner. [21] And there came forth a spirit, and stood before the Lord, and said, I will persuade him. [22] And the Lord said unto him, Wherewith? And he said, I will go forth, and I will be a lying spirit in the mouth of all his prophets. And he said, Thou shalt persuade him, and prevail also: go forth, and do so. [23] Now therefore, behold, the Lord hath put a lying spirit in the mouth of all these thy prophets, and the Lord hath spoken evil concerning thee.

[shag]

Originally Posted by Esaias

1 Samuel 28:7 KJV
Then said Saul unto his servants, Seek me a woman that hath a familiar spirit, that I may go to her, and enquire of her. And his servants said to him, Behold, there is a woman that hath a familiar spirit at Endor.

1 Samuel 28:8 KJV
And Saul disguised himself, and put on other raiment, and he went, and two men with him, and they came to the woman by night: and he said, I pray thee, divine unto me by the familiar spirit, and bring me him up, whom I shall name unto thee.

A few remarks:

1. The woman had a familiar spirit, that is, a demon.
2. The communication with Samuel was to take place via the demon. Saul would ask, the woman has her visions or whatever, then she reports back to Saul. Everything is happening in the witch's trance state and is being reported by her to Saul.
3. Does it not seem strange that a possessed witch has the power to raise the dead?

My conclusion: Samuel was dead and stayed dead, the woman had a demon, and the events are part of Saul's downfall.

See also:

1 Kings 22:19-23 KJV
And he said, Hear thou therefore the word of the Lord : I saw the Lord sitting on his throne, and all the host of heaven standing by him on his right hand and on his left. [20] And the Lord said, Who shall persuade Ahab, that he may go up and fall at Ramoth-gilead? And one said on this manner, and another said on that manner. [21] And there came forth a spirit, and stood before the Lord, and said, I will persuade him. [22] And the Lord said unto him, Wherewith? And he said, I will go forth, and I will be a lying spirit in the mouth of all his prophets. And he said, Thou shalt persuade him, and prevail also: go forth, and do so. [23] Now therefore, behold, the Lord hath put a lying spirit in the mouth of all these thy prophets, and the Lord hath spoken evil concerning thee.

Maybe.


the Egyptian magicians also did the same things by their secret arts: 12..Each one threw down his staff and it became a snake

But the magicians did the same things by their secret arts; they also made frogs come up on the land of Egypt.


Satan had power to change the weather…tornado, earthquake? Boils on Job
I’m not sure any of this means his demons can, or cannot bring up the dead

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by shag

Maybe.


the Egyptian magicians also did the same things by their secret arts: 12..Each one threw down his staff and it became a snake

But the magicians did the same things by their secret arts; they also made frogs come up on the land of Egypt.

Are those on the same level as raising dead prophets against the will of God to prophesy? Weird stuff happens, doesn't mean some demonized witch can summon dead prophets to prophesy.

Satan had power to change the weather…tornado, earthquake? Boils on Job
I’m not sure any of this means his demons can, or cannot bring up the dead

Job is interestingly enough classed with the wisdom and poetry books rather than the history or prophetical books. In any event, the US Government admits to weather modification. Doesn't mean they can raise the dead.

[Monterrey]

Yeah, but the Bible says she brought up Samuel. End of discussion. Let God be true and every man a liar.

[shag]

Originally Posted by Monterrey

Yeah, but the Bible says she brought up Samuel. End of discussion. Let God be true and every man a liar.

Does it?

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by Monterrey

Yeah, but the Bible says she brought up Samuel. End of discussion. Let God be true and every man a liar.

So you believe demon possessed witches can actually raise the dead?

Ecclesiastes 9:5-6 KJV
For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten. [6] Also their love, and their hatred, and their envy, is now perished; neither have they any more a portion for ever in any thing that is done under the sun.

Saul said God was not speaking to him anymore, including by prophets. The apparition (which Saul is not seeing, see verses 8, 13, and 14) says "Then why are you talking to me since God isn't talking to you?" In other words, if God doesn't speak to you by prophets, then why do you think you are talking to one now?" Can a demon or a witch force the power of God to revive the dead and prophesy? Especially in direct contravention of God's own Law?

1 Chronicles 10:13-14 KJV
So Saul died for his transgression which he committed against the Lord, even against the word of the Lord, which he kept not, and also for asking counsel of one that had a familiar spirit, to enquire of it ; [14] And enquired not of the Lord : therefore he slew him, and turned the kingdom unto David the son of Jesse.

He wasn't enquiring of God through His prophet, he was communicating with a demon. Yea, let God be true and every man a liar.

[votivesoul]

Just a little point to add to the discussion, neither in favor of, or against, any one particular position:

Not only did the woman claim to see "Samuel", when Saul asked her what she was seeing after she cried out in what is presumably terror or horror or shock (etc.), she said:

"I saw an elohim..."

https://biblehub.com/interlinear/1_samuel/28-13.htm

For those not in the know, elohim is the most common Hebrew word for God, but also can be translated as "a god", or "gods", and generally connotes any kind of beings and/or entities that live in the spirit realm.

It makes the story more interesting, in my opinion, trying to determine just what she meant by the use of the term. Was Samuel, such as she perceived him, an elohim to her?