Pentecostal Confusion??

[returnman]

I have several Pentecostals on my facebook. Most Mondays you see post about "we had great church last night, "The songleader lost his voice, praise the lord", "man you missed it if you weren't there".

I have been where they are so I am no stranger.

This seems to be the pinnacle of of their relationship with God. If you do this on a weekly basis than you have matured spiritually.
Hint...I know some of their lives so yes I am being tongue-in-cheek somewhat.

I honestly don't feel I am missing anything.

[BalancedLife]

The true Biblical concept of Church is so much more than a pinnacle service on Sunday night. I hope that some can see that and get out of the traditions that have plagued the Pentecostals since the early 1950's.

[returnman]

Originally Posted by BalancedLife

The true Biblical concept of Church is so much more than a pinnacle service on Sunday night. I hope that some can see that and get out of the traditions that have plagued the Pentecostals since the early 1950's.

I think it has gotten worse with the younger instant gratification generation.

[Lafon]

Originally Posted by BalancedLife

The true Biblical concept of Church is so much more than a pinnacle service on Sunday night. I hope that some can see that and get out of the traditions that have plagued the Pentecostals since the early 1950's.

I believe it began quite some time before the early 1950s. After having studied the actions of the early 20th Century Apostolic Pentecostal "church fathers," and considering from whence they came (that is, from either the RCC or one of her many harlots), then it is NOT surprising to recognize that they retained many of her corrupt traditions which continue to the present.

In 1914, following the "revelations" of water baptism "in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ" instead of the former triune formula of Father, Son, and Holy Ghost, and the "oneness of God," the early OAP "church fathers" proclaimed them to be "The Finished Works of Calvary." IMHO, that proclamation, because its inference was that these things served to "restore" the OAP church as it was in the 1st Century, was a most grievous error. Essentially, it implied that in the "re-discovery" of these truths which the RC Church & her many harlots had managed to suppress or keep hidden for such a long time, then there were NO other sacred truths to be "re-discovered." Wrong! But that is precisely what the Enemy wanted, but he had others plans in the works to stall and prevent this "newly discovered" religious movement from advancing.

What was the 2nd error these contemporary OAP "church fathers" made that not only prevented other sacred truths from being "discovered," but has also hindered the OAP church's mission upon the earth during these latter times? It can be found in the manner of its organizing efforts: we have to be like all of the other denominations by creating a hierarchy, separating the ministry from the laity (RCC terms) was the prevailing thought of that time. Neither Jesus Christ or His apostles knew of, or taught such a separation! Also included, and even publicly expressed by many at that time, was that these new converts could NOT effectively perform the work of the ministry, but must have a leader to guide them. Well, what they failed to take into consideration was the fact that the Lord Jesus Christ is the "Head" of His church, and not man, and if the task of leading the flock were assigned unto Him, then the rest of the "body" would perform its individual tasks perfectly.

I could enumerate a host of such "traditions" which the early 20th Century OAP "church fathers" instilled at that time which remain in effect until the present. However, for brevity sake, allow me to close my remarks by referring to Paul's words to the 1st Century saints, telling them of the "way" we are to "do church."

"How is it then, brethren? When ye come together, every one of you hath a psalm, hath a doctrine, hath a tongue, hath a revelation, hath an interpretation. Let all things be done unto edifying. If any man speak in an unknown tongue, let it be by two, or at the most by three, and that by course; and let one interpret. But if there be no interpreter, let him keep silence in the church; and let him speak to himself and to God. Let the prophets speak two or three, and let the other judge. If any thing be revealed to another that sitteth by, let the first hold his peace. For ye may all prophesy one by one, that all may be comforted. And the spirits of the prophets are subject to the prophets. For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints ..... What? Came the word of God out from you? Or came it unto you only? If any man think himself to be a prophet, or spiritual, let him acknowledge that the things I write unto you are the commandments of the Lord. But if any man be ignorant, let him be ignorant. Wherefore, brethren, covet to prophesy, and forbid not to speak with tongues. Let all things be done decently an in order." (I Corinthians 14:26-33, 36-40, KJV)

Anyone ever attended an assembly of contemporary OAP saints (i.e., "church") whose corporate agenda/activities have "mirrored" the manner that Paul has advised us via these words: an agenda which the Lord Jesus Christ commanded? I haven't, but sure would love to. The closest I have ever come to witnessing such a thing is during the weekly "home church" meetings I attend.

My thoughts.

[crakjak]

Originally Posted by Lafon

I believe it began quite some time before the early 1950s. After having studied the actions of the early 20th Century Apostolic Pentecostal "church fathers," and considering from whence they came (that is, from either the RCC or one of her many harlots), then it is NOT surprising to recognize that they retained many of her corrupt traditions which continue to the present.

In 1914, following the "revelations" of water baptism "in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ" instead of the former triune formula of Father, Son, and Holy Ghost, and the "oneness of God," the early OAP "church fathers" proclaimed them to be "The Finished Works of Calvary." IMHO, that proclamation, because its inference was that these things served to "restore" the OAP church as it was in the 1st Century, was a most grievous error. Essentially, it implied that in the "re-discovery" of these truths which the RC Church & her many harlots had managed to suppress or keep hidden for such a long time, then there were NO other sacred truths to be "re-discovered." Wrong! But that is precisely what the Enemy wanted, but he had others plans in the works to stall and prevent this "newly discovered" religious movement from advancing.

What was the 2nd error these contemporary OAP "church fathers" made that not only prevented other sacred truths from being "discovered," but has also hindered the OAP church's mission upon the earth during these latter times? It can be found in the manner of its organizing efforts: we have to be like all of the other denominations by creating a hierarchy, separating the ministry from the laity (RCC terms) was the prevailing thought of that time. Neither Jesus Christ or His apostles knew of, or taught such a separation! Also included, and even publicly expressed by many at that time, was that these new converts could NOT effectively perform the work of the ministry, but must have a leader to guide them. Well, what they failed to take into consideration was the fact that the Lord Jesus Christ is the "Head" of His church, and not man, and if the task of leading the flock were assigned unto Him, then the rest of the "body" would perform its individual tasks perfectly.

I could enumerate a host of such "traditions" which the early 20th Century OAP "church fathers" instilled at that time which remain in effect until the present. However, for brevity sake, allow me to close my remarks by referring to Paul's words to the 1st Century saints, telling them of the "way" we are to "do church."

"How is it then, brethren? When ye come together, every one of you hath a psalm, hath a doctrine, hath a tongue, hath a revelation, hath an interpretation. Let all things be done unto edifying. If any man speak in an unknown tongue, let it be by two, or at the most by three, and that by course; and let one interpret. But if there be no interpreter, let him keep silence in the church; and let him speak to himself and to God. Let the prophets speak two or three, and let the other judge. If any thing be revealed to another that sitteth by, let the first hold his peace. For ye may all prophesy one by one, that all may be comforted. And the spirits of the prophets are subject to the prophets. For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints ..... What? Came the word of God out from you? Or came it unto you only? If any man think himself to be a prophet, or spiritual, let him acknowledge that the things I write unto you are the commandments of the Lord. But if any man be ignorant, let him be ignorant. Wherefore, brethren, covet to prophesy, and forbid not to speak with tongues. Let all things be done decently an in order." (I Corinthians 14:26-33, 36-40, KJV)

Anyone ever attended an assembly of contemporary OAP saints (i.e., "church") whose corporate agenda/activities have "mirrored" the manner that Paul has advised us via these words: an agenda which the Lord Jesus Christ commanded? I haven't, but sure would love to. The closest I have ever come to witnessing such a thing is during the weekly "home church" meetings I attend.

My thoughts.

I tend to agree with your post.

[Jermyn Davidson]

Originally Posted by Lafon

I believe it began quite some time before the early 1950s. After having studied the actions of the early 20th Century Apostolic Pentecostal "church fathers," and considering from whence they came (that is, from either the RCC or one of her many harlots), then it is NOT surprising to recognize that they retained many of her corrupt traditions which continue to the present.

In 1914, following the "revelations" of water baptism "in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ" instead of the former triune formula of Father, Son, and Holy Ghost, and the "oneness of God," the early OAP "church fathers" proclaimed them to be "The Finished Works of Calvary." IMHO, that proclamation, because its inference was that these things served to "restore" the OAP church as it was in the 1st Century, was a most grievous error. Essentially, it implied that in the "re-discovery" of these truths which the RC Church & her many harlots had managed to suppress or keep hidden for such a long time, then there were NO other sacred truths to be "re-discovered." Wrong! But that is precisely what the Enemy wanted, but he had others plans in the works to stall and prevent this "newly discovered" religious movement from advancing.

What was the 2nd error these contemporary OAP "church fathers" made that not only prevented other sacred truths from being "discovered," but has also hindered the OAP church's mission upon the earth during these latter times? It can be found in the manner of its organizing efforts: we have to be like all of the other denominations by creating a hierarchy, separating the ministry from the laity (RCC terms) was the prevailing thought of that time. Neither Jesus Christ or His apostles knew of, or taught such a separation! Also included, and even publicly expressed by many at that time, was that these new converts could NOT effectively perform the work of the ministry, but must have a leader to guide them. Well, what they failed to take into consideration was the fact that the Lord Jesus Christ is the "Head" of His church, and not man, and if the task of leading the flock were assigned unto Him, then the rest of the "body" would perform its individual tasks perfectly.

I could enumerate a host of such "traditions" which the early 20th Century OAP "church fathers" instilled at that time which remain in effect until the present. However, for brevity sake, allow me to close my remarks by referring to Paul's words to the 1st Century saints, telling them of the "way" we are to "do church."

"How is it then, brethren? When ye come together, every one of you hath a psalm, hath a doctrine, hath a tongue, hath a revelation, hath an interpretation. Let all things be done unto edifying. If any man speak in an unknown tongue, let it be by two, or at the most by three, and that by course; and let one interpret. But if there be no interpreter, let him keep silence in the church; and let him speak to himself and to God. Let the prophets speak two or three, and let the other judge. If any thing be revealed to another that sitteth by, let the first hold his peace. For ye may all prophesy one by one, that all may be comforted. And the spirits of the prophets are subject to the prophets. For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints ..... What? Came the word of God out from you? Or came it unto you only? If any man think himself to be a prophet, or spiritual, let him acknowledge that the things I write unto you are the commandments of the Lord. But if any man be ignorant, let him be ignorant. Wherefore, brethren, covet to prophesy, and forbid not to speak with tongues. Let all things be done decently an in order." (I Corinthians 14:26-33, 36-40, KJV)

Anyone ever attended an assembly of contemporary OAP saints (i.e., "church") whose corporate agenda/activities have "mirrored" the manner that Paul has advised us via these words: an agenda which the Lord Jesus Christ commanded? I haven't, but sure would love to. The closest I have ever come to witnessing such a thing is during the weekly "home church" meetings I attend.

My thoughts.

Another error would be the INSISTENCE that all who do not follow and believe as they believe are lost.

So, these truths that has been "hidden" for 1,800+ years, according to their belief system, would doom ALMOST THE ENTIRETY OF CHRISTENDOM from X-hundred AD up until what, 1914?

To believe Christianity requires faith, but I don't have enough faith to doom (by my belief system) so many to an eternity in the Lake of Fire over doctrines "re-discovered" in 1914.

[Lafon]

Originally Posted by Jermyn Davidson

Another error would be the INSISTENCE that all who do not follow and believe as they believe are lost.

So, these truths that has been "hidden" for 1,800+ years, according to their belief system, would doom ALMOST THE ENTIRETY OF CHRISTENDOM from X-hundred AD up until what, 1914?

To believe Christianity requires faith, but I don't have enough faith to doom (by my belief system) so many to an eternity in the Lake of Fire over doctrines "re-discovered" in 1914.

We must always be mindful that God is a righteous Judge, and only He knows the heart of man and is able to judge righteously.

I judge no one, but do believe that all must obey the command to "repent, be baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and receive the baptism of the Holy Ghost with the evidence of speaking in other tongues as the Spirit gives the utterance" (Acts 2:38).

Moreover, Paul wrote in II Corinthians 4:3 that if the gospel of Christ, which he and the other apostles preached during the 1st Century, is unknown to another; inferring that if any should never learn of this gospel before dying, then they shall be lost (I've paraphrased Paul's statement as a way of expounding upon it).

Paul made it explicitly and unmistakably clear in the words of Romans 8:9 that "if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his." There are truly only two who KNOWS whether one possesses the "Spirit of Christ," and that is the Lord and each individual.

While I might believe another possesses the "Spirit of Christ," and perhaps even their lives give visible witness to it, I cannot know their heart as God knows it, therefore I do not judge others.

However, I am able to judge mine own self, and having done that because I have endeavored to heed and obey Peter's command of Acts 2:38, then I am satisfied that my hope of eternal salvation is sure.

[justlookin]

Originally Posted by Lafon

"repent, be baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and receive the baptism of the Holy Ghost with the evidence of speaking in other tongues as the Spirit gives the utterance" (Acts 2:38).

What bible is that quote from? I can't find that particular verbiage in any of the bibles I have, KJV, NASB, ect.

(I'm assuming that the text in quotes is Acts 2:38 verbatim in your version)

[Pressing-On]

Originally Posted by returnman

I have several Pentecostals on my facebook. Most Mondays you see post about "we had great church last night, "The songleader lost his voice, praise the lord", "man you missed it if you weren't there".

I have been where they are so I am no stranger.

This seems to be the pinnacle of of their relationship with God. If you do this on a weekly basis than you have matured spiritually.
Hint...I know some of their lives so yes I am being tongue-in-cheek somewhat.

I honestly don't feel I am missing anything.

Seriously, and you matured spiritually as a critic and a gossip? "I read this on Facebook...."

Humor me here for a moment - visualize you and these people standing before God. I'm, like, thinking I wouldn't want to be standing next to you. Just sayin'...

[KWSS1976]

Lafon, don't doubt you spoke in tongues,but was it done like the day of Pentecost where the onlookers heard you in there own language and was able to understand what you were saying as on the day of Pentecost?