PARTIAL Preterism VS. FULL Preterism

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On another thread we read...

Originally Posted by Digging4Truth

Brother Moon...

Thank you so much for all you have contributed to this thread so far. It has been helpful.

I tried to ask the question I am about to ask once before and it was between Evang Benincasa & mfblume...

Friends... that is too explosive of a combination to get anything done. I finally had to just abandon the thread and let them have at it.

I apologize for wasting my own and your time in that scuffle. I refuse to get involved any more in that sort of thing. Again, many apologies.

I am not necessarily even trying spark a debate. I am just trying to get a grasp on what the difference is between full & partial preterism.

Brother Moon...
What is the difference between full & partial preterism and why is it important to understand the portion of the doctrine that makes the difference?

The difference is that full preterism takes the BODILY resurrection of 1 Cor 15 and interpets it to mean A SPIRIT BODY that is not the physical body we all know and love/hate.

I wrote the following studies on this issue, for more detail.

Partial Preterism vs. Full Preterism
MF Blume
2004

Similarities

The similarities and differences between Partial Preterism and Full Preterism are:

* We both agree that Christ came in judgment in 70 AD against Jerusalem.
* We both believe Matthew 24 is totally fulfilled.
* We both believe that Revelation focuses upon the wrath of God upon Israel in 70 AD.

Differences

* But the biggest differences arise in the issue of the Resurrection,
* The Final White Throne judgment,
* And the end of this “old” Earth.
* Partial Preterism proposes these things are still future.
* I came into this teaching through study of the work of the cross.
* This will have a great bearing on my viewpoint of partial preterism.

The Resurrection Issue

Paul taught that we are spiritually resurrected with Christ already.

Rom 6:4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.

Rom 6:9-11 Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over him. (10) For in that he died, he died unto sin once: but in that he liveth, he liveth unto God. (11) Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.

But Paul spoke of a future physical resurrection as well.

1Co 15:50-55 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.
(51) Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
(52) In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
(53) For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
(54) So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.
(55) O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?


1Co 15:3-8 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; (4) And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: (5) And that he was seen of Cephas, then of the twelve: (6) After that, he was seen of above five hundred brethren at once; of whom the greater part remain unto this present, but some are fallen asleep. (7) After that, he was seen of James; then of all the apostles. (8) And last of all he was seen of me also, as of one born out of due time.

1Co 15:13 But if there be no resurrection of the dead, then is Christ not risen:

Paul compares the thought of OUR resurrection with Christ’s resurrection.

Ours is based upon His.

1Co 15:18 Then they also which are fallen asleep in Christ are perished.

1Co 15:20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.

Firstfruits

Wave Offering was Made with FIRSTFRUITS.

* We are not told what aspect of the wave offering we are to consider.
* There is aspect of first of many identical ones to follow.
* Public display of the firstfruits.
* And firstfruits were special offering.
* But which aspect are we to consider?
* We are not told.
* Some Full Preterists say the VISIBILITY of the wave offering differentiates Jesus’ resurrection as VISIBLE and PHYSICAL, whereas ours will be invisible.
* However, the latter harvest of grain was as physical as the wave offering.
* One was just showcased, while the rest were still physically visible but not showcased.
* We need more of a foundation than showcasing the wave offering to say our resurrection will not be physical.

1Co 15:35 But some man will say, How are the dead raised up? and with what body do they come?

“THE DEAD”

Who are the Dead?

* We must go back to see that Christ was “dead”.

1Co 15:3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;

His resurrection sets the precedent for ours.

* And HIS BODY was seen.
* When Christ DIED, what DIED?
* Did His Spirit, soul or body die?
* HIS BODY.
* Since HIS BODY was raised, then our resurrection will also be our BODIES.
* The term BODY does not change to refer to physical members in one case and spirit in another case, as though our physical bodies will not resurrect as Jesus’ did.


Paul said THE “BODY” IS “RAISED”.

What part of Christ was Buried, and then raised?

* His BODY.
* Therefore, the raising is also said to involve BODIES in verse 35.
* “How are the dead raised up? and with what body do they come?”
* The sort of BODY does not change halfway through 1 Cor 15 from the physical body to a “spirit”.


Also, what is sown?

1Co 15:36 Thou fool, that which thou sowest is not quickened, except it die:

Something DIES.

* It WAS ALIVE, DIES and IS MADE ALIVE AGAIN.
* “Resurrection” comes the word “RESURGENCE.
* To make alive a SECOND TIME.
* If it is not our physical bodies, then what was alive, died and is made alive again (a second time) in resurrection?
* Our spirits were already dead in sins, and were made alive in salvation.
* They will not die again when we physically die.

NOTHING "RESURRECTS" IN FULL PRETERISM. They just call it "resurrection", but technically the word cannot apply to their beliefs, since nothing that was alive and died will be made alive again in their view for our future. Our spirits were already dead and made alive when we were first saved.

A Seed

1Co 15:36 Thou fool, that which thou sowest is not quickened, except it die:

Sowing the seed causes the seed to come up again in a different form.

* IT IS “CHANGED”, not EXCHANGED.
* The same thing arises in a different FORM.

1Co 15:37-38 And that which thou sowest, thou sowest not that body that shall be, but bare grain, it may chance of wheat, or of some other grain: (38) But God giveth it a body as it hath pleased him, and to every seed his own body.

1Co 15:42-44 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption: (43) It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power: (44) It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.

The same “IT” that is sown is the “IT” that is raised – this is CONTINUITY OF THE ELEMENT THAT IS SOWN.

* And when IT is sown, it is a natural body.
* “IT: – the same thing – is raised a spiritual body.
* The issue is Natural vs. spiritual.

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These terms do not refer to the material the body is composed of

Same terms are used in the SAME BOOK, and do not refer to the material that something is made of.

1Co 2:14-15 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned. But he that is spiritual judgeth all things, yet he himself is judged of no man.

Spiritual Christians are not people who are composed of spiritual material.

* THEY ARE SPIRITUALLY DRIVEN.
* You can be spiritually MINDED, but that does not mean your mind is composed of spirit material.
* This is the same with the NATURAL BODY and the SPIRITUAL BODY of ch. 15.
* It is not a body that is made of spirit material.
* It is a physical body that is SPIRITUALLY DRIVEN.
* Adam’s body was driven by animal urges, since it was temporal, and was earth-related.

Adam vs. Jesus

1Co 15:45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.

Last Adam is JESUS.

* Jesus was resurrected and still had a physical body.
* So “quickening Spirit” is not speaking about the material of his body being spirit material.
* His physical body still had the scars from His death.
* But it was spiritually driven.

1Co 15:49 And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.

This is speaking about BODIES.

* Christ’s body is the HEAVENLY one.
* His body was “changed” in His resurrection.
* Whatever His body was like is what our bodies will be like in the resurrection.
* This makes no sense if Christ’s BODY was changed but our SPIRITS are changed.

Greek Words

Natural is ψυχικοìς (psuchikos).
Spiritual is πνευματικοìς (pneumatikos)

* Greek words that end in “inos” speak of compositional material.
* Greek words that end in “ikos” speak of characterictics.
* So the spiritual body is not a spirit, but is the physical body that is DRIVEN by Spirit for purposes of never dying and being eternity-related and Holy Ghost-controlled, as opposed to animal appetites of our present bodies.


1 Cor 15 is not speaking about physical vs. immaterial bodies.

1 Co 15:42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:

It is:
Perishable vs. imperishable.
Weakness vs. power (v. 43).
Dishonour vs. glory (v. 43).


The SPIRITUAL BODY cannot be an immaterial human SPIRIT.

* If the HUMAN SPIRIT is CHANGED when the resurrection occurs, why is that the Bible teaches our SPIRITS are already changed at new birth?

Eze 11:19 And I will give them one heart, and I will put a new spirit within you; and I will take the stony heart out of their flesh, and will give them an heart of flesh:

God’s Spirit births human spirits in new birth.

* Do we have a new spirit at new birth that is CHANGED AGAIN when we physically die? – No.


A spirit is NOT a body – bodies HOUSE spirits.

* Man is comprised of spirit, soul and body.
* And Paul said the BODY is changed, not the spirit.
* The BODY is SOWN when it is put into the grave – not the spirit – and is CHANGED when it is raised.
* Your spirit does not change when you are buried.
* It already changed when you were born again – the body just needs to catch up!
* God redeems us totally.. Spirit, soul AND BODY!
* Nothing will be lost!

Phi 3:20-21 For our conversation is in heaven; from whence also we look for the Saviour, the Lord Jesus Christ: Who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body, according to the working whereby he is able even to subdue all things unto himself.

What part of Jesus was CHANGED and made GLORIOUS?

* HIS BODY! – not His Spirit.
* So 1 Cor 15 is speaking about a physical body that will be changed in the resurrection, and that has not happened yet.


To say that Paul was speaking of a change in 70 AD, demands that the human spirits SLEPT in a soul/spirit-sleep before 70 AD.

* And that means that only after 70 AD does the soul and spirit not sleep, but resurrect immediately.


However, before AD70, James said this:

Jam 2:26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

When one died before 70 AD, the spirit LEFT THE BODY, making the BODY “DEAD”.

* It did not REMAIN and SLEEP in the body.

If Paul was speaking about 70 AD in 1 Cor 15, James would agree and distinguish their day from our day by saying “the body with the sleeping spirit is dead”, and only after 70 AD “the body without the spirit is dead.”

* But instead, James said the spirit is WITHOUT/OUTSIDE the body, thereby making the body “dead.”
* That is certainly not describing the soul-sleeping in the grave.
* So, the body that is raised in 1 Cor 15 cannot be the spirit.

BEFORE 70 AD, Paul wrote:

2Co 5:6 Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord:

2Co 5:8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord. (James said this is death).

Paul stated in his day, before AD70, that he would be absent from the body and present with the Lord if he physically died.

* How could he say that before 70 AD if his soul “SLEPT” in the body with all other saints until 70 AD?
* If the spirit slept until 70 AD, then Paul would be sleeping and not present with the Lord if he died.

The SPIRITUAL BODY that we get in the resurrection is not talking about our human spirits.

* It’s talking about a physical body changed to be spiritually driven rather than earthly driven.
* Jesus’ body CHANGED in the tomb when He arose.
* Our bodies will be fashioned like unto His glorious body (Phil. 3:21).
* He had mortal wounds on that body that would have killed it all over again if it was still mortal.
* Our bodies will be changed JUST AS HIS WAS!
* This mortal shall put on immortality (1 Cor 15:54).

2Co 5:6 Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord:

Notice what Paul says he is.

* “WE” are at home IN THE BODY.
* “WE” refers to christians’ souls and spirits.

2Co 5:1-4 For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens. (2) For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven: (3) If so be that being clothed we shall not be found naked. (4) For we that are in this tabernacle do groan, being burdened: not for that we would be unclothed, but clothed upon, that mortality might be swallowed up of life.

If PAUL IS a soul/spirit, then it is the soul/spirit that is CLOTHED upon by a house from heaven.

* Tabernacles are TENTS – temporary homes.
* HOUSES are not temporary.
* …in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven… in this tabernacle do groan
* So the BODY that we are buried in is CHANGED into a heavenly and spiritual body THAT CLOTHES THE SOUL/SPIRIT.
* Paul did not say that his soul/spirit was groaning inside his soul/spirit, to be given his soul and spirit.
* The TABERNACLE in which he (his spirit) groaned was his physical body.
* And the new HOUSE FROM HEAVEN would be a new PHYSICAL BODY, the old one CHANGED.
* You cannot clothe your spirit with your new spirit?
* Coca-Cola Bottles are not Coca-Cola!

Daniel 12

Dan 12:1-2 And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.(2) And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

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What is This Resurrection in Daniel?

Joh 5:21-24 For as the Fa1ther raiseth up the dead, and quickeneth them; even so the Son quickeneth whom he will. (22) For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son: (23) That all men should honour the Son, even as they honour the Father. He that honoureth not the Son honoureth not the Father which hath sent him. (24) Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

This is speaking about GENERAL SALVATION.


Daniel 12’s reference to resurrection into everlasting life indicates general salvation.

* Jesus used the same words to describe people who get saved.
* Faith in the Gospel causes us to come into everlasting life.

1Jo 5:11 And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son.

John said we already have eternal life in the Son!

* I am already IN CHRIST!

1Jo 5:12 He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life.

John 11:24-25 Martha saith unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day. Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:

We were Dead in sins and raised into newness of life when we were saved!

* Jesus said that in refuting the thought that a future resurrection alone could make one alive.

1Th 4:13-14 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope. (14) For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

Who are THEM THAT SLEEP?

* Paul spoke about “the dead in Christ” as those asleep.
* Some full preterists say these are old testament saints who are spiritually dead, but that cannot be true because NOBODY is spiritually dead when they are in CHRIST.

1Jo 5:11 And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son.

Alive and Remain

1Th 4:15-17 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. (16) For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: (17) Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

The SLEEPING saints were the physically DEAD saints who were buried in graves.

* If this occurred in AD70, and the saints in graves arose, we must say also that the living saints arose in air as well.
* BUT THEY DID NOT.

“CAUGHT UP”

Strong’s G726
ἁρπαìζω
harpazō
har-pad'-zo
From a derivative of G138; to seize (in various applications): - catch (away, up), pluck, pull, take (by force).
HARPADZO means to CATCH AWAY.

The “catching away” of the church is SCRIPTURAL TRUTH.

The SAME GREEK word is used to denote a physical removal.

Act 8:39 KJV And when they were come up out of the water, the Spirit of the Lord caught away (HARPADZO) Philip, that the eunuch saw him no more: and he went on his way rejoicing.

And living saints would be “caught up/away” immediately after dead saints were caught up.

* This did not occur in AD70.
* If the dead in Christ are not physically dead saints, then who are they?
* Old Testament saints whose sins have not yet been dealt with?
* They can’t be, for how could they be IN CHRIST if their sins were not dealt with?

2Co 5:17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.

Sins are already dealt with if we’re “in Christ”.

* How could old things be passed away if our sins are not yet dealt with?

AD70 Did Not Do What the Cross Did

Is the “AIR” the spiritual, heavenly realm?

* If so, then LAW ended in 70 AD, and spiritually dead Old Testament saints became spiritually alive in 70 AD.
* But Law ENDED with John the Baptist, not in 70 AD.

Luke 16:16 The law and the prophets were until John: since that time the kingdom of God is preached, and every man presseth into it. – (It does not read “until AD70”)

And the CROSS removed the hindrance of LAW from the world to be saved.

Col 2:14 Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross; (It does not read “removing it by the Roman Armies”)

The dead in Christ in 1 Thess 4 are the NT saints who died, giving concern for their living loved ones.

* “We which are alive and remain” distinguishes Paul and the others from the “dead in Christ”.
* If “the dead in Christ” were old testament saints, then why distinguish them by “we which are alive and remain”?
* How does the word “REMAIN” fit?
* “Remain” is not used to contrast Old Testament saints, but to contrast living people from dead people – from the Old or New Testament!
* Sounds more like Christians who would be alive and remaining, as opposed to Christians & Old Testament saints who died and were buried.

1 Thessalonians 4

1Th 4:15-17 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
(16) For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
(17) Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.


1Co 15:51-52 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
(52) In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

Corinthians and Thessalonians Agree

“We shall not all sleep” in 1 Cor 15, forces us to conclude that “them which sleep” in 1 Thess 4 can speak of New Testament saints!

* Paul said not all Christians will sleep/die. But all will be changed.
* All – both dead and living -- will be changed when Jesus comes for the church.
* But only the living – not “all” – will not sleep/die, but be like Elijah who was carried away before dying.
* If the sleeping saints in 1 Thess 4 refers to Old Testament saints, then in 1 Cor 15 Paul could not say “we shall not all sleep,” it would make no sense!


AD70 saw only judgment for Israel, alone.

* There was no resurrection then.

Mat 24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

This is the ANTITHESIS to the following:

Mat 23:37 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!

The gathering together in Matt 23 is not a resurrection, and neither is it in Matt 24.

COMPARE

Mat 23:36-37
(36) Verily I say unto you, All these things shall come upon this generation.
(37) O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!


Mat 24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
Mat 24:34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.

For evildoers shall be cut off: but those that wait upon the LORD, they shall inherit the earth (Ps. 37:9).

* The above verse says sin will end, and no sinners will exist one day.
* Partial Preterism proposes a FINAL JUDGMENT FOR SIN.
* If there is no final judgment for sin, then sin and righteousness must exist side by side on an earth that never ends – THIS IS CALLED DUALISM.
* Partial Preterism states that sin shall have an end at a final judgment.
* The Bible states the wicked will be cut off.
* And the believers will inherit the earth.
* (But if there is no end for sin, then the earth will always have sinners, refuting Psalm 37:9)
* There will be no eternal wickedness.
* God will overcome sin totally but a final judgment.
* Otherwise corruption will always remain


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Full pretetrists claim "What we see now is what we Christians will get in history forever."

But... if there is no future judgment, then…

1. Satan was judged once and for all in 70 AD, and sin lives on in mankind only. (That means that we no longer war against principalities and powers, and there are no demons to cast out any more.)

2. Or, Satan will never be absolutely judged. So death can never be defeated! (Satan has power of death).


* But we read, 1Co 15:26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.


If there is no end of sin and death in a final judgment. Then the sting of death is forever to be found in history.

* That means God will never cause good and evil battling to end.
* This makes the sinners of the world equally heir to the world forever as saints!

Mat 5:5 Blessed are the meek: for they shall inherit the earth.

If there is no final judgment for sin, then sinners and saints BOTH inherit the earth!

* Matthew 5 demands an end of sinners.
* So there must be a future final judgment.



"Thy will be done in earth, as it is in heaven" (Matt. 6:10b).

* In Heaven, sin does not exist!
* This prayer is seeking for sin to no longer exist in the earth.
* In Earth sin exists in mankind because of ADAM’S ORIGINAL SIN.
* Sin still exists in our bodies to this day!
* If you do not pray and walk after the Spirit, you will be overcome by sin in your flesh and will commit sins.


The only way the earth can be as it is in heaven, is by sin being totally removed one day, even from our flesh.

* If there is no more judgment in this world, then sin will never be totally removed from our flesh.
* And we cannot say that the church will overcome all the evil of sin, because that demands that Christians should no longer still have sin in their flesh.
* That is impossible... UNLESS OUR PHYSICAL BODIES ARE CHANGED.



Does not the work of the cross bring a solution to the ORIGINAL SIN OF ADAM?

* Without a final judgment of ORIGINAL SIN, and no end of the Earth, Christians will be born and live and die, forever on this earth.
* The greatest victory they will ever have is only SUPPRESSING sin.
* But that means GOD CANNOT REMOVE THE SIN FROM LIVING CHRISTIANS ON EARTH, that Adam brought, BY THE CROSS.


Partial Preterism proposes that there MUST be a final judgment for sin.

* And THAT will be the time when our BODIES that still “house” sin are CHANGED and then FREED from sin.
* Mortal puts on immortality.
* Corruption puts on incorruption.
* Corruption COMES from the ORIGINAL SIN OF ADAM.
* Death in the earth is then totally swallowed up – not just in one sense!

The members of the Church who are in Heaven right now are freed totally from sin.

* But the members of the church on Earth are not yet, although SINS are forgiven.
* So we still GROAN.
* But the church on Earth WILL ALSO be totally freed from sin – completely – when the resurrection occurs, and joined with the church in Heaven.
* There will be no Church in Earth that is burdened with fighting SIN in the flesh.

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Originally Posted by Digging4Truth

What is the difference between full & partial preterism and why is it important to understand the portion of the doctrine that makes the difference?

Full preterism, in my opinion, wreaks havoc of the simple terms the bible uses, such as FIRSTFRUITS. Firstfruits, as I have shown above, is used by Full Preterists in 1 Cor 15 to differentiate between Christ's physical resurrection and our alleged non-physical resurrection.

Let us hand it to the full preterists that they do NOT BELIEVE the resurrection is past. They believe OUR RESURRECTION IS FUTURE. They just think it is non-physical. But it is a heinous misrepresentation to say they DO NOT BELIEVE RESURRECTION IS FUTURE.

But.... the entire meaning of "firstfruits" is that there would be ADDITIONAL IDENTICAL elements to be harvested later in relation to that which is considered firstfruits and harvested FIRST. This entire simple thought is totally reverted to something entirely opposite in full preterism. Ful preterists say the firstfruits ARE NOT identical to the latter harvest. They concentrate upon the VISIBILITY and SHOWCASING of the firstfruits in contrast to a non-showcased latter harvest of the same crop. But the point is, although the firstfruits were harvested FIRST (Hence, the term "FIRST" in "FIRSTfruits"), the LATTER HARVESTED CROP IS IDENTICAL! Hence, the term is distorted to mean entirely the opposite of its true meaning in full preterism.

FIRSTFRUITS is contrasted from the rest fo the harvest by virtue of the very ROOT WORD "FIRST". It is not a contrast of VISIBLE or INVISIBLE. It is FIRST OR LAST. If full preterists were correct, God should have instead used the term "VISIBLEFRUITS" to make the contrast one of visibility or invisibility due to the physical nature of Christ's resurrection and the NON-PHYSICAL nature of their view on our own resurrection.

So, in my opinion, terms are twisted in full preterism. And NO ONE would come up with in reading 1 Cor 15.

The TIME is the only cotrast, not thre nature of the visibility or invisibility of hte resurrection. THe context proves this:

1Co 15:23 KJV But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

It is a TIME difference ALONE!!!!!

"AFTERWARD" proves it is ONLY a TIME issue implied in "firstfruits" in contrast to our resurrection.

Whatever happened to Jesus' body will happen to our own:

Phi 3:21 KJV Who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body, according to the working whereby he is able even to subdue all things unto himself.

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Here is the serious difference as well between full preterism and partial preterism.

THE WEAK CROSS OF FULL PRETERISM
Mike Blume
November 2005

The major differences between full preterism and every other belief system are not shown conclusively in scripture. They have to be derived from associating scriptures that are not conclusively shown in scripture to be associated.

Full preterism teaches that the resurrection of 1 Cor. 15 is not physical, but non-physical, due to an error they propose in assuming a resurrected "spiritual body" is not physical. In reality, an immortal, physical body is "spiritual". Natural laws of science cannot explain how He had wounds that formerly killed Him when He walked out of the tomb and lived. He resurrected from the dead! How natural is that? It is "spiritual"! It is not a matter of being non-physical when we read the term "spiritual". Spiritual things can be quite physical. Angels. Burning bushes that are not consumed. Miracles. It's a contrast from natural law, and is SPIRITUAL law. And that is the context of the concept of Natural vs. Spiritual in 1 Cor 15. So, in this context, it is not physical vs. non-physical but natural physical vs. spiritual physical. FP's made the mistake of thinking anything "spiritual" is "non-physical" and that is not the case at all. It's just something physical that is non-natural!

We are not reading a contrast in 1 Cor. 15 between the physical and the spiritual, which would imply the spiritual is non-physical. If it was physical vs. spiritual, then that would be a contrast of material used in the body -- physical matter vs. non-physical matter. But it is a contrast from natural to spiritual. And that means the bodies are physical in both cases. Natural physique and spiritual physique.

Men today are considered in the same book of 1 Cor in chapter 2 as being either "natural" or "spiritual" as well.

1Co 2:13-15 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual. (14) But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned. (15) But he that is spiritual judgeth all things, yet he himself is judged of no man.

Is that speaking about compositional material? Of course not. It is speaking of natural inclination vs. spiritual inclination. It's speaking of motivation. Not composite material.

Jesus Christ's body was spiritual and not natural when it came out of the tomb. But it was still physical. A mortal body is natural. Nature produces mortal bodies. Nature cannot produce an immortal body, though. An immortal physical body is not natural, but spiritual. That is the proper contrast.

1 Cor. 15 said whatever body Jesus had when He came out of the tomb is the sort of body we will have in the resurrection. Redemption is a term applicable to various things. We are presently redeemed from sin. Paul said our bodies will be redeemed, and that is surely evident due to the struggle within our bodies with sin. And since this struggle still continues, I take this as evidence our bodies are not yet redeemed.

Rom 8:23 KJV And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.

The leap towards having faith that the redemption of the body has already occurred is far greater than the step to realize that our bodies are our "bodies." In fact it's too great a leap, and becomes assumption. In full preterism the thoughts of what happened to Christ's physical body, as though it no longer exists, must be assumed, since scripture says nothing about it. If our bodies have been redeemed, as full preterism states, then there are too many gaps in this thought that are never answered in scripture.

What happened to Jesus' physical body after it ascended? It must not exist any more, since full preterism proposes an eternal spiritual body is not physical, and if Jesus' physical body still exists we see the entire concept broken. His present physical existence would demand a physical resurrection of our bodies, and full preterists know that, so they take extrabiblical leaps of reason to explain it away.

Full Preterism requires 1 Cor 15 to be fulfilled already. And that means Jesus Christ no longer rules on the throne. This chapter states the Son of God rules until all enemies are beneath his feet. If all enemies are now beneath His feet, then He is no longer ruling.

Also, satan must be going to exist forever on earth influencing men and women forever, since Rev 20 is fulfilled, and what is now the case for the devil will always be the case for the devil -- i.e. running throughout the world forever influencing men and women. Full preterism sees no end to this influence from satan!

Not only that, but the scripture that teaches the meek shall inherit the earth will never be fulfilled, since there will be both sinners and saints forever on the earth. Sinners will never be removed.

Also, we are told God's will must be done in earth as it is in heaven. There is no sin in heaven. This cannot be fulfilled in earth if full preterism is correct. Full preterism must conclude that sin will always exist.


continued...

[mfblume]

And this leads to another conclusion. And this one scares me the most, and no full preterist whom I know has ever been able to respond to it yet. Adam brought sin into the world. And while Romans 5 states Christ's work of obedience done above and beyond the degree of influence that Adam's disobedience accomplished, full preterism makes this untrue. Full Preterism must conclude the sin that Adam brought into the world is, at best, ONLY SUPPRESSED by Believers. What Adam brought into the world, when once it did not exist in the world, will never leave the world according to full preterism.

Sin is in our flesh. Even after we are saved. And that is why Paul said he kept his body "under", lest sin arise, as it did in his past according to Romans 7. That is one reason why I claim our bodies are not redeemed yet. Sin is in our flesh. We struggle daily with it. We can suppress it by walking after the Spirit, but that is the greatest victory we can have according to full preterism, until we die. And saints will live and die forever according to full preterism, and yet they say death is already destroyed.

There is the church in heaven and the church in the earth. We are all one body called the church. But the saints in heaven are free of their sinful flesh. The saints in earth are not. And full preterism implies these two elements of the church will never converge and come together to one day no longer see this distinction. Partial preterism, and every other prophetic belief, teaches one day this life in flesh that houses sin will cease. Our actual bodies will change from physical mortal ones to physical immortal ones, like Christ's did in the tomb. At that point, sin will no longer exist in our bodies. The saints in heaven will also receive immortal bodies (2 Cor 5). They will not be left as "naked" souls and spirits without bodies. It is then that the church in heaven and the church in earth both experience the reception of an immortal, incorruptible body. And satan will be put out of the way once and for all, and Adam's sin will not even exist any more... not in our flesh nor any sinners' flesh, because sinners will be removed once and for all and the saints shall truly inherit the earth.

Partial preterism says Adam's sin will be removed totally, and not merely suppressed forever, which agrees with Romans 5's assertion that Christ's work of obedience went above and beyond the influence of Adam's disobedience.

Matthew 5:5 Blessed are the meek: for they shall inherit the earth.

Matthew 6:10 Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done in earth, as it is in heaven.

Psalm 37:28 For the LORD loveth judgment, and forsaketh not his saints; they are preserved for ever: but the seed of the wicked shall be cut off.

Psalm 37:38 But the transgressors shall be destroyed together: the end of the wicked shall be cut off.

Proverbs 2:21-22 For the upright shall dwell in the land, and the perfect shall remain in it. (22) But the wicked shall be cut off from the earth, and the transgressors shall be rooted out of it.

Truthfully, the cross accomplished the finished work. Time alone stands between the cross and the bringing down of all enemies, with death as the last one to be brought down. Death has been dealt a fatal blow at the cross. It now staggers in the flesh of believers due to the cross in saints who know how to yield to the Spirit and not fulfill lusts of the flesh. But Christ sits and waits on His throne for all enemies to be put under His feet practically, not just positionally. Positionally, this is already so. He is seated, and we are seated with Him, above all powers in this world and the world to come. But practically this will occur when enemies in this world are brought to nothing. Then He ceases to rule.

But His work on the cross dealt the blow already! Hebrews 9 and 10 contrasts ministers who stand forever doing a work that is never fulfilled. In contrast, Christ sits! The work is done. And since He sits expecting His enemies to be made His footstool, He knows the work on the cross dealt the blow that will see all enemies finally fall under His feet, practically. It's as though He dealt every enemy force a blow at the cross, and went to sit on His throne, and simply expect by waiting for that single Blow to bring them down. What a blow! 2000 years ago the cross dealt this fatal blow. And it still ripples through time, as Christ still knows it will eventually bring down every enemy! And it therefore affects every enemy to this day, and it took place 2000 years ago! AWESOME GOD!

Full preterism's blow from the cross is not at all fatal. Sin will forever exist. Satan will forever influence men and women in the earth. Adam's sin was introduced into the world and will never be removed. What a weak cross full preterism proposes!

Hebrews 10:11-13 And every priest standeth daily ministering and offering oftentimes the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins: (12) But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God; (13) From henceforth expecting till his enemies be made his footstool.

Let's compare futurism with full preterism.

In regards to resurrection, Full preterism is far different than ANY view, let alone partial preterism. I think that makes full preterism unreasonable. The nature of the resurrection is such a major view in the scope of prophecy, and an important one in general thought of salvation, that FP has crossed the line. (No offense to full preterists). I would sooner be full futurist than full preterist so as not to abandon the plain reading of the physical resurrection. But it seems futurism and full preterism are simply extremes surrounding the reality.

Compare the two options of major errors in futurism and full preterism:

(1) No physical resurrection in 1 Cor 15 (full preterism)

(2) Overlooking the OT prophetic Language found in Matthew 24, so as to miss the AD70 tribulation and coming of Christ in destruction. (futurism)

Although I am convinced both are wrong, if I had a choice between the above two, I would far sooner choose #2 as my faith rather than #1. In other words, it is far more reasonable to stand by #2 than #1, since the physical resurrection is so obvious in 1 Cor 15. When one considers the difference between the two of totally confusing the meaning of resurrection in 1 Cor 15 with simply missing the timing of Matt 24, the timing issue is not so severe as the other. I am convinced futurism is error. But in order to SIMPLY SHOW HOW MUCH IT IS ERROR TO BELIEVE IN NO PHYSICAL RESURRECTION, I make this claim. This shows how much I believe in a physical resurrection. The issue of physical resurrection issue is more important than saying antichrist came in the past or has not yet come, or whether or not Revelation is already fulfilled. For this reason, the I propose UPC was gravely wrong in forbidding partial preterism along with full preterism.

To reinterpret plain language in 1Cor 15 in order to make full preterism fit is beyond me. I honestly believe nobody would ever get the full preterist explanation of 1 Cor 15 upon reading it, without the compulsion to make an invisible resurrection occur in Matt 24. All full preterists, in my experience in talking to them, reinterpret the plain reading of 1 Cor 15 for the sole purpose of making it fit, since there cannot be a physical resurrection in our future if there was an invisible resurrection in AD70. "If the early saints did not get one in AD70, then how could we in our future?" they reason.

It's more understandable to miss the OT prophetic language in Matt 24 than it is to reinterpret the resurrection in 1 Cor 15. Missing Matt 24 is simply careless oversight of prophetic language, and a trend to simply keep in line with popular view and what was taught to us, since most of us were taught futurism as apostolics. (Not many change views on ANYTHING they first believed. The more open minded folks pray for correction if there need be any). But proposing no physical resurrection is more serious than that.

In summary, my opinion is that Full preterism's error is distortion of plain scripture. Futurism's error is in careless oversight of prophetic language.

[crakjak]

Originally Posted by mfblume

And this leads to another conclusion. And this one scares me the most, and no full preterist whom I know has ever been able to respond to it yet. Adam brought sin into the world. And while Romans 5 states Christ's work of obedience done above and beyond the degree of influence that Adam's disobedience accomplished, full preterism makes this untrue. Full Preterism must conclude the sin that Adam brought into the world is, at best, ONLY SUPPRESSED by Believers. What Adam brought into the world, when once it did not exist in the world, will never leave the world according to full preterism.

Sin is in our flesh. Even after we are saved. And that is why Paul said he kept his body "under", lest sin arise, as it did in his past according to Romans 7. That is one reason why I claim our bodies are not redeemed yet. Sin is in our flesh. We struggle daily with it. We can suppress it by walking after the Spirit, but that is the greatest victory we can have according to full preterism, until we die. And saints will live and die forever according to full preterism, and yet they say death is already destroyed.

There is the church in heaven and the church in the earth. We are all one body called the church. But the saints in heaven are free of their sinful flesh. The saints in earth are not. And full preterism implies these two elements of the church will never converge and come together to one day no longer see this distinction. Partial preterism, and every other prophetic belief, teaches one day this life in flesh that houses sin will cease. Our actual bodies will change from physical mortal ones to physical immortal ones, like Christ's did in the tomb. At that point, sin will no longer exist in our bodies. The saints in heaven will also receive immortal bodies (2 Cor 5). They will not be left as "naked" souls and spirits without bodies. It is then that the church in heaven and the church in earth both experience the reception of an immortal, incorruptible body. And satan will be put out of the way once and for all, and Adam's sin will not even exist any more... not in our flesh nor any sinners' flesh, because sinners will be removed once and for all and the saints shall truly inherit the earth.

Partial preterism says Adam's sin will be removed totally, and not merely suppressed forever, which agrees with Romans 5's assertion that Christ's work of obedience went above and beyond the influence of Adam's disobedience.




Truthfully, the cross accomplished the finished work. Time alone stands between the cross and the bringing down of all enemies, with death as the last one to be brought down. Death has been dealt a fatal blow at the cross. It now staggers in the flesh of believers due to the cross in saints who know how to yield to the Spirit and not fulfill lusts of the flesh. But Christ sits and waits on His throne for all enemies to be put under His feet practically, not just positionally. Positionally, this is already so. He is seated, and we are seated with Him, above all powers in this world and the world to come. But practically this will occur when enemies in this world are brought to nothing. Then He ceases to rule.

But His work on the cross dealt the blow already! Hebrews 9 and 10 contrasts ministers who stand forever doing a work that is never fulfilled. In contrast, Christ sits! The work is done. And since He sits expecting His enemies to be made His footstool, He knows the work on the cross dealt the blow that will see all enemies finally fall under His feet, practically. It's as though He dealt every enemy force a blow at the cross, and went to sit on His throne, and simply expect by waiting for that single Blow to bring them down. What a blow! 2000 years ago the cross dealt this fatal blow. And it still ripples through time, as Christ still knows it will eventually bring down every enemy! And it therefore affects every enemy to this day, and it took place 2000 years ago! AWESOME GOD!

Full preterism's blow from the cross is not at all fatal. Sin will forever exist. Satan will forever influence men and women in the earth. Adam's sin was introduced into the world and will never be removed. What a weak cross full preterism proposes!



Let's compare futurism with full preterism.

In regards to resurrection, Full preterism is far different than ANY view, let alone partial preterism. I think that makes full preterism unreasonable. The nature of the resurrection is such a major view in the scope of prophecy, and an important one in general thought of salvation, that FP has crossed the line. (No offense to full preterists). I would sooner be full futurist than full preterist so as not to abandon the plain reading of the physical resurrection. But it seems futurism and full preterism are simply extremes surrounding the reality.

Compare the two options of major errors in futurism and full preterism:

(1) No physical resurrection in 1 Cor 15 (full preterism)

(2) Overlooking the OT prophetic Language found in Matthew 24, so as to miss the AD70 tribulation and coming of Christ in destruction. (futurism)

Although I am convinced both are wrong, if I had a choice between the above two, I would far sooner choose #2 as my faith rather than #1. In other words, it is far more reasonable to stand by #2 than #1, since the physical resurrection is so obvious in 1 Cor 15. When one considers the difference between the two of totally confusing the meaning of resurrection in 1 Cor 15 with simply missing the timing of Matt 24, the timing issue is not so severe as the other. I am convinced futurism is error. But in order to SIMPLY SHOW HOW MUCH IT IS ERROR TO BELIEVE IN NO PHYSICAL RESURRECTION, I make this claim. This shows how much I believe in a physical resurrection. The issue of physical resurrection issue is more important than saying antichrist came in the past or has not yet come, or whether or not Revelation is already fulfilled. For this reason, the I propose UPC was gravely wrong in forbidding partial preterism along with full preterism.

To reinterpret plain language in 1Cor 15 in order to make full preterism fit is beyond me. I honestly believe nobody would ever get the full preterist explanation of 1 Cor 15 upon reading it, without the compulsion to make an invisible resurrection occur in Matt 24. All full preterists, in my experience in talking to them, reinterpret the plain reading of 1 Cor 15 for the sole purpose of making it fit, since there cannot be a physical resurrection in our future if there was an invisible resurrection in AD70. "If the early saints did not get one in AD70, then how could we in our future?" they reason.

It's more understandable to miss the OT prophetic language in Matt 24 than it is to reinterpret the resurrection in 1 Cor 15. Missing Matt 24 is simply careless oversight of prophetic language, and a trend to simply keep in line with popular view and what was taught to us, since most of us were taught futurism as apostolics. (Not many change views on ANYTHING they first believed. The more open minded folks pray for correction if there need be any). But proposing no physical resurrection is more serious than that.

In summary, my opinion is that Full preterism's error is distortion of plain scripture. Futurism's error is in careless oversight of prophetic language.

I will have to print this out and study it over the next week. Or two.

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by crakjak

I will have to print this out and study it over the next week. Or two.

You are a great student, bro.

Mike,

Is it even remotely possible that you would concede that maybe, just MAYBE, your views about the "timing" of the fulfillment of our Lord's words concerning "end-time peophecies" might be amiss? Even the slightest chance? If so, then we might have some ground for discussion, but in the absence of such an admittance, I see no value in allowing myself to become involved in a discussion with you about this matter. In all candor, I must tell you that I sincerely believe that you views regarding this singular matter has so tainted everything else you embrace and broadcast as truth, that it is practically impossible to engage in any type of discussion with you on any topic. I am trying to be as honest with you as possible about this, and pray that you will grasp where my intentions are. Seeing you have partaken of the SAME heavenly gift and calling as I, then I do entertain a tremendous degree of concern for your eternal well-being, as I hope that you do for me as well.