A Return

[Dante]

I must confess that it has been a few years since I've gone to church. I know, let the jeering terms of scorn begin.

A few weeks ago I returned to the Apostolic church where I was baptized. I expected to hear a heart-felt teaching with some depth to it. Instead, I was met with a fiery sermon about holiness and standards - practically the very same thing that was being taught and lectured about when I left.

Preaching about holiness and standards has it place, but why does that have to be the central focus of an Apostolic church? Consider the fact that the demographics of the church are mostly over the age of 65+ and have been faithful members of the church for nearly all of their lives, or at least half of their lives. If these old folks don't have holiness down by now they never will!

I'm just let down by the modern Apostolic church. I believe God to be more well-rounded and deeper than what He is given credit for in His house now of days. I will not return to church, but I will walk with God, and I believe I can have walk with God and be in fellowship with Him apart from what calls itself "His church."

[AreYouReady?]

Originally Posted by Dante

I'm just let down by the modern Apostolic church. I believe God to be more well-rounded and deeper than what He is given credit for in His house now of days. I will not return to church, but I will walk with God, and I believe I can have walk with God and be in fellowship with Him apart from what calls itself "His church."

Amen. Sometimes it is a lonely walk. The Holy Ghost does lead and guide people if the will to follow Christ is there.

[Sam]

Don't judge all churches by the one you visited.

Some are stuck in a "time warp" and some are "cultic" but there are also genuine Christians and very good local assemblies all over the world.

Many oneness churches are in survival mode as they struggle to hold onto the "faithful few" while they preach an irrelevant message of performance based religion and hunker down and "hide" in their fortresses with those who have drunk the koolaid huddled in there with them. All over the world God is pouring out His Spirit. There are millions and millions who consider themselves Pentecostal/Charismatic. Don't give up on "The Church." It is alive and well.

Just remember "The House of God is much larger than that little room where many of us used to dwell."

[bbyrd009]

Originally Posted by Sam

Don't judge all churches by the one you visited.

Some are stuck in a "time warp" and some are "cultic" but there are also genuine Christians and very good local assemblies all over the world.

Many oneness churches are in survival mode...

Um, what about the "trinny" churches, Sam?

[trialedbyfire]

Originally Posted by Dante

I must confess that it has been a few years since I've gone to church. I know, let the jeering terms of scorn begin.

A few weeks ago I returned to the Apostolic church where I was baptized. I expected to hear a heart-felt teaching with some depth to it. Instead, I was met with a fiery sermon about holiness and standards - practically the very same thing that was being taught and lectured about when I left.

Preaching about holiness and standards has it place, but why does that have to be the central focus of an Apostolic church? Consider the fact that the demographics of the church are mostly over the age of 65+ and have been faithful members of the church for nearly all of their lives, or at least half of their lives. If these old folks don't have holiness down by now they never will!

I'm just let down by the modern Apostolic church. I believe God to be more well-rounded and deeper than what He is given credit for in His house now of days. I will not return to church, but I will walk with God, and I believe I can have walk with God and be in fellowship with Him apart from what calls itself "His church."

Maybe being "well-rounded" and "deeper" isn't God's assignment for you're old pastor...

Maybe your old pastor has been praying, preaching, and teaching simply what the Lord wills him too and God simply needs him to preach in particular way to reach the particular saints your pastor is pastoring...

Maybe you should seek the Lord on finding a pastor who preaches to your direct needs rather then critizing pastors who aren't as "deep" or "Well-rounded" as you...

...maybe... just maybe.

No offense. I just get sick of people trashing pastors. I've gone to OP churches accross the east coast with the military, prayed for a pastor who preaches the word of God and who preaches a word to meet my needs whatever they may be. He's provided every time.

[Dante]

Originally Posted by trialedbyfire

Maybe being "well-rounded" and "deeper" isn't God's assignment for you're old pastor...

Maybe your old pastor has been praying, preaching, and teaching simply what the Lord wills him too and God simply needs him to preach in particular way to reach the particular saints your pastor is pastoring...

Maybe you should seek the Lord on finding a pastor who preaches to your direct needs rather then critizing pastors who aren't as "deep" or "Well-rounded" as you...

...maybe... just maybe.

No offense. I just get sick of people trashing pastors. I've gone to OP churches accross the east coast with the military, prayed for a pastor who preaches the word of God and who preaches a word to meet my needs whatever they may be. He's provided every time.

This is another qualm I have. Why does the church have to be so pastor-centered? Why isn't the church community-centered? If you look at the modern sanctuary and how it is designed, it is very "leader" focused instead of people focused. There is a stage area (often known as the platform or pulpit area), and there is an audience. The focus is on one man...the pastor! He/She is the main event of the service. I thought ministry leadership was a team effort, and not an autocracy?

I could be wrong....

But then again, I could be right!

[trialedbyfire]

Originally Posted by Dante

This is another qualm I have. Why does the church have to be so pastor-centered? Why isn't the church community-centered? If you look at the modern sanctuary and how it is designed, it is very "leader" focused instead of people focused. There is a stage area (often known as the platform or pulpit area), and there is an audience. The focus is on one man...the pastor! He/She is the main event of the service. I thought ministry leadership was a team effort, and not an autocracy?

I could be wrong....

But then again, I could be right!

People love the concept of the community centered church... especially those who like to criticize pastors for not preaching the way they want them to.

With all due respect, you're the one who brought up "the pastor" I didn't.

I simply defended a man you criticized because you didn't like his preaching.

[Dante]

Originally Posted by trialedbyfire

People love the concept of the community centered church... especially those who like to criticize pastors for not preaching the way they want them to.

With all due respect, you're the one who brought up "the pastor" I didn't.

I simply defended a man you criticized because you didn't like his preaching.

Thus you are defending pastoral-autocracy, or the belief that a local church is governed solely by a single executive.

The fact is, the modern church is America is greatly flawed. Then again, so am I. So are you! We are all flawed. But I know the flawless One, and I am determined to stick with Him, and Him alone.

[trialedbyfire]

Originally Posted by Dante

Thus you are defending pastoral-autocracy, or the belief that a local church is governed solely by a single executive.

The fact is, the modern church is America is greatly flawed. Then again, so am I. So are you! We are all flawed. But I know the flawless One, and I am determined to stick with Him, and Him alone.

No, I'm defending the fact that you're not always right like you think you are.

God forbid the preacher is just doing what God wants him to. But we know that's not the case... because you said so.

[MissBrattified]

Originally Posted by Dante

Thus you are defending pastoral-autocracy, or the belief that a local church is governed solely by a single executive.

The fact is, the modern church is America is greatly flawed. Then again, so am I. So are you! We are all flawed. But I know the flawless One, and I am determined to stick with Him, and Him alone.

The thing is, though, sticking with Him also means loving His people. You can't love God and not love people, and love is an active thing. You don't love people by refusing to be around them. I find it odd that Jesus could fellowship with sinners and publicans and we can't even fellowship with our brothers and sisters if they think, believe or speak something disagreeable.

I think it's great to find a church that suits you; we did that. If the old church doesn't fit you anymore, find a different one. However, it is in God's plan that we fellowship with and worship with other believers. It isn't just about Him; it's about His people, too. The church isn't just God and me; it's God and me and a whole bunch of other people--including the pastors who lack great revelation.

Part of God's amazing plan for the church is that we be unified as a people, and one of the major reasons we can't be unified in the modern church is that folks think they have to agree 100% to attend somewhere. Really, it isn't all THAT spiritual. It's just about worshiping God together, listening to someone expound the Word together and fellowshipping with one another. I don't normally get divine inspiration from church, although it happens occasionally. I get that from my personal walk with God. My own prayer and Bible reading. My own research and study. At church I get community, support, fellowship and both an awareness of and an obligation to people and efforts outside myself. From the pulpit, I get provocation, admonition and conviction; reminders and prompts to better myself as a Christian. Church isn't the spiritual part of our walk with God, IMO. It's the practical part, at least mostly. It's the working part. It's the part that requires time, effort and selflessness.

For that matter, I can worship God in just about ANY body of believers. Of course I prefer to go to an assembly that is more closely aligned with what I believe and my personal values, but I don't go to church so someone there can help orchestrate my relationship with God. That's my own personal thing. It's autonomous. I wonder if people maybe feel that their walk with God is somehow threatened when the church doesn't line up with their personal views... I say make church about being involved with people and outreach and community and charity work and corporate worship/prayer and submitting your ears to someone else's ideas and teachings out of the Word. Find your personal satisfaction in God on your own. Then it won't matter so much if the preaching or teaching isn't up to snuff.