Lot's Revelation of Grace

[rrford]

Lot's Revelation of Grace

A story is told about Fiorello LaGuardia, who, when he was mayor of New York City during the worst days of the Great Depression and all of WWII, was called by adoring New Yorkers 'the Little Flower' because he was only five foot four and always wore a carnation in his lapel. He was a colorful character who used to ride the New York City fire trucks, raid speakeasies with the police department, take entire orphanages to baseball games, and whenever the New York newspapers were on strike, he would go on the radio and read the Sunday funnies to the kids. One bitterly cold night in January of 1935, the mayor turned up at a night court that served the poorest ward of the city. LaGuardia dismissed the judge for the evening and took over the bench himself.

Within a few minutes, a tattered old woman was brought before him, charged with stealing a loaf of bread. She told LaGuardia that her daughter's husband had deserted her, her daughter was sick, and her two grandchildren were starving. But the shopkeeper, from whom the bread was stolen, refused to drop the charges. "It's a real bad neighborhood, your Honor." the man told the mayor. "She's got to be punished to teach other people around here a lesson." LaGuardia sighed. He turned to the woman and said "I've got to punish you. The law makes no exceptions--ten dollars or ten days in jail." But even as he pronounced sentence, the mayor was already reaching into his pocket. He extracted a bill and tossed it into his famous sombrero saying: "Here is the ten dollar fine which I now remit; and furthermore I am going to fine everyone in this courtroom fifty cents for living in a town where a person has to steal bread so that her grandchildren can eat. Mr. Baliff, collect the fines and give them to the defendant."

So the following day the New York City newspapers reported that $47.50 was turned over to a bewildered old lady who had stolen a loaf of bread to feed her starving grandchildren, fifty cents of that amount being contributed by the red-faced grocery store owner, while some seventy petty criminals, people with traffic violations, and New York City policemen, each of whom had just paid fifty cents for the privilege of doing so, gave the mayor a standing ovation.

When a person works an eight-hour day and receives a fair day's pay for his time, that is a wage. When a person competes with an opponent and receives a trophy for his performance, that is a prize. When a person receives appropriate recognition for his long service or high achievements, that is an award. But when a person is not capable of earning a wage, can win no prize, and deserves no award--yet receives such a gift anyway--that is a good picture of God's unmerited favor. This is what we mean when we talk about the grace of God. (Source of illustration unknown.)

Grace, in a basic sense is the unmerited favor of God towards man. We did not earn it nor do we deserve it. With that in mind I believe that we must be incredibly careful how we define it and what we do in the name of grace.

Grace As It Relates To Holiness Is A TEACHER. Titus 2:11-12 "For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men, Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world;" Grace was not only good enough to save us but it is also powerful enough to sanctify us.

Tell me then, please, how people that claim “grace” can live in an ungodly lifestyle? There are some who will still not heed some of the things that have been taught by their Pastor and will in their own way use “grace” as the reason why.

[rrford]

Grace is not an excuse for a lack of holy living. Grace was never intended to be an escape mechanism from holiness. Understand that through grace we have been given access to the Throne of God that previous peoples did not have. That means that we are allowed a different dimension of His presence than they had.

Now think for a moment…without grace they were required to live a certain way and they still were not allowed direct access to His presence. Does it not stand to reason then that we who have received this access by grace should expect to live by the same and possibly even higher standard? After all, we are in closer proximity to the true Holy of Holies.

In this hour we face the reality of the distortion of grace. Jude verse 4 states "For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ."

In other words there are those that will try to liken grace to a base act of the flesh They will take it totally out of the realm of the spiritual and make it carnal. How obvious it is that it is happening! People claim Christ but continue to live according to the flesh and hide behind a false definition of grace. As mentioned previously, the basic definition of grace is "the unmerited favor of God towards man." More completely it means "The divine influence upon the heart and it's reflection in the life."

A new revelation of grace? I do not need a new revelation of grace. The one that came in the original package is still good enough for me. It is interesting to note how often these same people have incorrect concepts of the judgment of God also.

The tragedy of Lot’s life is that his revelation of grace was distorted and led him astray spiritually. In Genesis chapter 19 the tragic story of his misperception is played out. Verse 15 shows us that he is given a command to leave Sodom so that he can avoid judgment. Notice he is not told where to go. Sometimes God doesn't say where to go right away. The main thing is getting you out of where you are.

Verse 16 is indicative of his love for the city when it says that he lingered - Notice how the spirit of the place had to have gotten a hold on him. The Lord was merciful to him. Lot did not deserve it, especially after kicking and fussing the whole way. Yet, God still delivers him. Realize that deliverance from a present circumstance did not end the direction of God. Being delivered from sin is the beginning of direction from God, not the end.

The story further unfolds as the Lord directs him to the mountain and explicitly says not to stay in the plain. How much clearer does it need to be?? But Lot wanted the best of the worst situation. Until you get rid of the best of the worst in your life you will always struggle spiritually and in following the will of God.

Lot rejects the counsel of God. Big surprise, huh!? And here is the real kicker; the excuse Lot uses for doing his own thing is that he has found grace! Really? Who told him that he had found grace? And there is the problem. We don't find grace, God reveals it!

Lot makes a fatal mistake. He mistakes the mercy of God for the grace of God. Mercy. Grace. Mercy is the act of God towards man that requires nothing to receive it. In its basic sense, it is the compassion of God. Grace, in its basic sense is the favor of God.

Grace demands a response on our part for it to be grace and for it to continue in our lives. Remember that grace teaches, and teaching demands a response.

His revelation of grace said "I can't go to the mountain because something evil might happen and I will die." Now tell me, why would God deliver him from fire and brimstone just to kill him on the mountain? If God had wanted him dead He would have allowed him to stay in the cities during the destruction!

Lot’s Revelation of Grace gives him a plan for life. He quickly pleads his plan before God, "Let me go to this little city over here." "I don't want to go up the mountain of God, I would rather do my own thing. After all God showed me mercy and delivered me and now I have grace and grace will allow me to do whatever I want, right?"

This next point is critical: The Allowance Of Grace. Amazingly enough, God's grace will allow you to do whatever you want. Just remember that doesn't make it right. Lot felt o.k. about it. He didn’t feel convicted about it. We don’t need to feel conviction for it to be wrong. Folks that hide behind grace using the excuse “I don’t have a personal conviction against such and such” need to quickly come to the realization that if the word declares it to be wrong, either by specific word or principle, than it matters not at all how you feel about it.

Just because you are blessed by God does not mean that you are right with God. Yet people who depart from the truth will many times say “I’ve heard from God.” Seems perplexing, doesn’t it? I mean how can they hear one thing and you hear another thing and both of you be right? Quite simply, it just can’t be. But the truth is that many of them have indeed “heard” from God.

According to II Thessalonians 2:11-12 “And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.”

We find Lot, in his distorted revelation of grace, begging to go to Zoar. To those looking for an easy out there is always a place called Zoar. The name Zoar means "to be brought low, small, or ignoble.” The inference is that you will lose the place or standing that you once had and to be brought low. T is quite a distance from Zoar to the mountain where God intended for Lot to flee to.

Judgment does arrive in verse 24. If God promises judgment it will come. Lot's wife died because of one look back. What she was looking back for is immaterial. How much better it would have been for her to have set her face like a flint and scaled the mountain of God’s command. Instead, she had to have a final look and paid with her life for a last glimpse.

Amazingly enough verse 30 lets us know that Lot finally makes it to the mountain. And I guess that we ought to be thankful that he finally obeyed God. the problem with such thankfulness is the bittersweet realization that a distorted definition of grace will always exact a high price.

Your revelation of grace today will determine your judgment tomorrow. His daughters went to the mountain but they never left the spirit of Zoar or Sodom and Gommorah behind. They ended up committing gross sin with their father.

By incestuous relationships Lot became the father of Moab and Ammon. Those two boys grew up to be the beginnings of the Moabites and the Ammonites who in time became 2 of the greatest thorns in Israel's side.

That which you allow into your life today through a distorted revelation of grace will be the very thing that will come back and impregnate you with the seeds of your own destruction.

God help us to embrace this thing called grace and never forget the high price that He paid to bring it to us

[OneAccord]

Good teaching, Bro. RR. To me, grace is not the license to commit sin or to have sin in our lives, but rather, grace is the God given ability to escape a sinful life. Grace is seen when Abraham and Lot went their separate ways. Abraham gave Lot the chance to choose his own destiny. Rather than looking to the Lord for direction, Lot chose the path he could see with his eyes and ended up in a place he shouldn't have been. Grace is when God says "Choose you this day whom you will serve." When we choose to follow the Lord, He extends His grace to us, leading us in His ways, and enabling us to "live godly, soberly and righteously in this present world".

[Baron1710]

Originally Posted by rrford

Lot's Revelation of Grace


Tell me then, please, how people that claim “grace” can live in an ungodly lifestyle? There are some who will still not heed some of the things that have been taught by their Pastor and will in their own way use “grace” as the reason why.

I was enjoying your story and then, wow it took a bit of a turn and became well frankly unbiblical and illogical.

What does the teaching of a man, call him pastor if you like, have anything to do with, living an ungodly lifestyle? There is no foundation whatsoever for this jump in logic.

Then the story of Lot gets completely twisted to try and support your assertions.

for instance you say:

Originally Posted by rrford

Verse 16 is indicative of his love for the city when it says that he lingered - Notice how the spirit of the place had to have gotten a hold on him. The Lord was merciful to him. Lot did not deserve it, especially after kicking and fussing the whole way. Yet, God still delivers him. Realize that deliverance from a present circumstance did not end the direction of God. Being delivered from sin is the beginning of direction from God, not the end.

And yet Peter, inspired by the Holy Spirit, writes:

II Peter 2:7-8
But God also rescued Lot out of Sodom because he was a righteous man who was sick of the shameful immorality of the wicked people around him. 8 Yes, Lot was a righteous man who was tormented in his soul by the wickedness he saw and heard day after day.

Is it not entirely possible that Lot's lingering was to try and urge his family to come with him? That at least is plausible, your story contradicts the Scripture itself.

So it seems to me you have read a lot more into Lot's life than Peter did. Those of us who embrace grace see this from you folks who want to beat people over the head all the time. The interesting thing here is that you criticize and critique a man that God calls righteous.

Then you just keep going down the road of how horrible Lot is, reading into Scripture what it doesn't say and ignoring what it does say. The angel of the Lord tells him it was fine to stay on the plains, but that didn't fit into your sermon, so we will omit that fact.

Then you make this huge leap in logic that "grace" somehow causes Lot all these problems and insinuating that those that don't "listen to the pastor" will end up like Lot.

Frankly I would rather be like Lot, at least I know that God declared Lot righteous.

To his own master he stands or falls. You cut the legs out from under a man that God called righteous. Talk about a disgrace.

[Kim Komando]

Originally Posted by Baron1710

I was enjoying your story and then, wow it took a bit of a turn and became well frankly unbiblical and illogical.

What does the teaching of a man, call him pastor if you like, have anything to do with, living an ungodly lifestyle? There is no foundation whatsoever for this jump in logic.

Then the story of Lot gets completely twisted to try and support your assertions.

for instance you say:



And yet Peter, inspired by the Holy Spirit, writes:

II Peter 2:7-8
But God also rescued Lot out of Sodom because he was a righteous man who was sick of the shameful immorality of the wicked people around him. 8 Yes, Lot was a righteous man who was tormented in his soul by the wickedness he saw and heard day after day.

Is it not entirely possible that Lot's lingering was to try and urge his family to come with him? That at least is plausible, your story contradicts the Scripture itself.

So it seems to me you have read a lot more into Lot's life than Peter did. Those of us who embrace grace see this from you folks who want to beat people over the head all the time. The interesting thing here is that you criticize and critique a man that God calls righteous.

Then you just keep going down the road of how horrible Lot is, reading into Scripture what it doesn't say and ignoring what it does say. The angel of the Lord tells him it was fine to stay on the plains, but that didn't fit into your sermon, so we will omit that fact.

Then you make this huge leap in logic that "grace" somehow causes Lot all these problems and insinuating that those that don't "listen to the pastor" will end up like Lot.

Frankly I would rather be like Lot, at least I know that God declared Lot righteous.

To his own master he stands or falls. You cut the legs out from under a man that God called righteous. Talk about a disgrace.

Ooops. Then there's Scripture.

Can't escape the WHOLE COUNSEL of the Word, can we?

I don't know what's worse? Lambasting blood-bought brethren for not living under extrabiblical dogmas, with oratory driven with clothes-line holiness agendas and cute hokey phrases, as one of RRFord's friends once remarked, "They are deceived by Grace" ... or twisting the Word of God?

Sola Scriptura means nothing to a group of men who seek to perpetuate their gravy train and establish a neo-Levitical lineage.

This same crowd would put Samson in hell, although Paul calls him a champion of the faith in Hebrews 11, and would not license David in their good old boys network.

Seems Peter learned a lesson in realizing God had declared Lot righteous that RRFord's circle needs to still learn - and no it's not a "new" revelation:

You shall not call unclean what God has called clean

That's from the book of Acts.

Embrace grace. It covers.

And, yeah, it's not a license to abuse. Are there consequences for poor decisions, yes.
But seeds to destruction? A stretch.

[mizpeh]

Originally Posted by Kim Komando

Ooops. Then there's Scripture.

Can't escape the WHOLE COUNSEL of the Word, can we?

I don't know what's worse? Lambasting blood-bought brethren for not living under extrabiblical dogmas, with oratory driven with clothes-line holiness agendas and cute hokey phrases, as one of RRFord's friends once remarked, "They are deceived by Grace" ... or twisting the Word of God?

Sola Scriptura means nothing to a group of men who seek to perpetuate their gravy train and establish a neo-Levitical lineage.
This same crowd would put Samson in hell, although Paul calls him a champion of the faith in Hebrews 11, and would not license David in their good old boys network.

Seems Peter learned a lesson in realizing God had declared Lot righteous that RRFord's circle needs to still learn - and no it's not a "new" revelation:

You shall not call unclean what God has called clean

That's from the book of Acts.

Embrace grace. It covers.

And, yeah, it's not a license to abuse. Are there consequences for poor decisions, yes.
But seeds to destruction? A stretch.

Why can't the attack be aimed at what he has written and not the person?

Did you happen to read One Accord's new thread about the island's shrinking?

[freeatlast]

Originally Posted by mizpeh

Why can't the attack be aimed at what he has written and not the person?

Did you happen to read One Accord's new thread about the island's shrinking?

"Touch not my anointed."

We want touch to mean critique .

and anointed to mean preachers.

[Baron1710]

Originally Posted by mizpeh

Why can't the attack be aimed at what he has written and not the person?

Did you happen to read One Accord's new thread about the island's shrinking?

I don't know railroadford, I didn't attack anyone. However, the conclusion drawn by him were aimed at a specific group of people, those that don't buy into the traditions-are-equal-to-Scripture crowd. So for Kim to flip the tables and pint this out was not an attack on the individual but on the attitude that is displayed by the crowd railroad allegedly runs with. I personally don't know him or who he hangs out with, but if he chooses to generalize the grace crowd (With a bad application of Scripture) then he really can't complain when those that hold his views are generalized.

[rrford]

Originally Posted by Baron1710

I was enjoying your story and then, wow it took a bit of a turn and became well frankly unbiblical and illogical.

What does the teaching of a man, call him pastor if you like, have anything to do with, living an ungodly lifestyle? There is no foundation whatsoever for this jump in logic.

Then the story of Lot gets completely twisted to try and support your assertions.

for instance you say:



And yet Peter, inspired by the Holy Spirit, writes:

II Peter 2:7-8
But God also rescued Lot out of Sodom because he was a righteous man who was sick of the shameful immorality of the wicked people around him. 8 Yes, Lot was a righteous man who was tormented in his soul by the wickedness he saw and heard day after day.

Is it not entirely possible that Lot's lingering was to try and urge his family to come with him? That at least is plausible, your story contradicts the Scripture itself.

So it seems to me you have read a lot more into Lot's life than Peter did. Those of us who embrace grace see this from you folks who want to beat people over the head all the time. The interesting thing here is that you criticize and critique a man that God calls righteous.

Then you just keep going down the road of how horrible Lot is, reading into Scripture what it doesn't say and ignoring what it does say. The angel of the Lord tells him it was fine to stay on the plains, but that didn't fit into your sermon, so we will omit that fact.

Then you make this huge leap in logic that "grace" somehow causes Lot all these problems and insinuating that those that don't "listen to the pastor" will end up like Lot.

Frankly I would rather be like Lot, at least I know that God declared Lot righteous.

To his own master he stands or falls. You cut the legs out from under a man that God called righteous. Talk about a disgrace.

And obviously you have forgotten that "righteous man" offered his daughters sexually to strangers, pleaded with God to not go where God wanted him to go and committed incest with his daughters. There is scripture...

If I have twisted the meaning of the Epistle you have twisted the result of the "righteous" man's actions.

[Baron1710]

Originally Posted by rrford

And obviously you have forgotten that "righteous man" offered his daughters sexually to strangers, pleaded with God to not go where God wanted him to go and committed incest with his daughters. There is scripture...

If I have twisted the meaning of the Epistle you have twisted the result of the "righteous" man's actions.

I didn't forget any of those things, I find a number of things troubling that happened in the OT that I can't explain. Like the guy who turns his concubine out and goes to bed while she is gang raped and then he acts indignant at what happens. This is similar to what Lot does in the passage in question. I don't get it.

However, whatever flaws he had he was righteous in the eyes of God, and that my friend, is where it matters.

How have I twisted the result of his actions? And why would you put righteous in quotes? You seem to still have a problem seeing Lot as righteous.

You started off with a great story, but if I can take liberty with your story, what you go on to say is that the women from that day on stole even more because she had received grace from the mayor. She then began to beat her grand children because they ate the candy she stole the next week.

Be afraid of Grace it will lead you down the wrong road.