Sinful union?

[Adino]

Wikipedia begins its definition of "Spiritual Death" with the following:

"In Christian theology, Spiritual Death is defined as a spiritual separation from God, usually brought on by sin. Christians believe that both spiritual death and physical death (defined in this context to be the separation of the body and the soul) were brought into the world through the The Fall of Man....."

Because of the abrupt realities involved, most of us better grasp the concept of physical death than we do spiritual death. When we see a loved one lying in a coffin we realize the real person is no longer present but has "departed." We recognize that a separation has occurred, that a union of spirit and flesh has been broken.

When we begin to think of spiritual death we attempt to understand what it means for the human spirit to have "died" because of the Fall. We attempt to again grasp the idea of separation and what it meant for the Spirit of God to have departed from the spirit of man breaking a once existing union between the two.

When the human spirit departs from the physical body only a lifeless vestige of the real person remains. In like fashion, the Spirit of Life departed from the human spirit leaving only a darkened shadow of God's real intended creation. The intended creation involved fellowship with God through a union of His Spirit with ours.

Sin broke union of man's spirit with God by forcing that which was holy to depart. Sin brought separation - the wage of Sin was death.

I think most on this forum would agree with this so far. Some might even think this elementary.

Sin brought separation - now let's focus on reunion and get to a question.

In order for the human spirit to become alive again there must be a reestablishment of the union between the human spirit and God. The human spirit must be quickened to life by virtue of being united with the Spirit of God. For this to take place that which causes separation must be removed.

Since the holy nature of God prohibits union with anything considered sinful, how is it the theology of many on this forum seems to suggest that God can dwell in and/or become unified with a heart which has not had sin removed?

Is this not precisely what most here would say happened in the case of Cornelius in Acts 10 and happens to anyone who speaks in tongues prior to being water baptized?

Thanks in advance for your thoughts.

God bless

[SDG]

Originally Posted by Adino

Wikipedia begins its definition of "Spiritual Death" with the following:



Because of the abrupt realities involved, most of us better grasp the concept of physical death than we do spiritual death. When we see a loved one lying in a coffin we realize the real person is no longer present but has "departed." We recognize that a separation has occurred, that a union of spirit and flesh has been broken.

When we begin to think of spiritual death we attempt to understand what it means for the human spirit to have "died" because of the Fall. We attempt to again grasp the idea of separation and what it meant for the Spirit of God to have departed from the spirit of man breaking a once existing union between the two.

When the human spirit departs from the physical body only a lifeless vestige of the real person remains. In like fashion, the Spirit of Life departed from the human spirit leaving only a darkened shadow of God's real intended creation. The intended creation involved fellowship with God through a union of His Spirit with ours.

Sin broke union of man's spirit with God by forcing that which was holy to depart. Sin brought separation - the wage of Sin was death.

I think most on this forum would agree with this so far. Some might even think this elementary.

Sin brought separation - now let's focus on reunion and get to a question.

In order for the human spirit to become alive again there must be a reestablishment of the union between the human spirit and God. The human spirit must be quickened to life by virtue of being united with the Spirit of God. For this to take place that which causes separation must be removed.

Since the holy nature of God prohibits union with anything considered sinful, how is it the theology of many on this forum seems to suggest that God can dwell in and/or become unified with a heart which has not had sin removed?

Is this not precisely what most here would say happened in the case of Cornelius in Acts 10 and happens to anyone who speaks in tongues prior to being water baptized?

Thanks in advance for your thoughts.

God bless

Brilliant as always? Considering you have only 4 other posts. Yet I was reading them recently ... and your understanding of the New Birth and John 3 is something that we all could learn from

Your thoughts on why God cannot dwell in a sinful vessel is one reason why the doctrine of baptismal remission holds no merit ...

Also, remission is not a different concept than forgiveness ... the original Greek uses the same word "aphesis".

Perhaps you can speak about the pet verse objection that will undoubtedly surface in this thread ....

And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord. Acts 22:16 KJV

[KwaiQ]

Originally Posted by Adino

Since the holy nature of God prohibits union with anything considered sinful, how is it the theology of many on this forum seems to suggest that God can dwell in and/or become unified with a heart which has not had sin removed?
God bless

Where do you get the concept that God will not dwell where there is sin? Scripture please?

[mizpeh]

Adino,

Quote:
Originally Posted by Adino
Since the holy nature of God prohibits union with anything considered sinful, how is it the theology of many on this forum seems to suggest that God can dwell in and/or become unified with a heart which has not had sin removed?
God bless


KwaiQ wrote:

What happens when we sin? Does the Spirit of God move out immediately and come back after we repent and are washed in blood of Jesus?

When King David sinned by committing adultery and murder why did he ask God not to take his Holy Spirit from him? He had already sinned yet he did not feel the Holy Spirit leave him.

[Adino]

Originally Posted by mizpeh

Adino,


What happens when we sin? Does the Spirit of God move out immediately and come back after we repent and are washed in blood of Jesus?

When King David sinned by committing adultery and murder why did he ask God not to take his Holy Spirit from him? He had already sinned yet he did not feel the Holy Spirit leave him.

Hello mizpeh, nice to meet you also.

Q: What happens when we sin (after receiving salvation)?
A: We recognize our sin, realize God dealt with it on Calvary and thank him for not holding it against us who have faith in him.

Q: Does the Spirit of God move out immediately and come back after we repent and are washed in blood of Jesus?
A: No. We abide in him and he in us.

These answers should cover your David question as well.

I see you have another post.... I will try to get to it when I can.

God bless

[Adino]

mizpeh,

"...Spirit of God to have departed from the spirit of man breaking a once existing union between the two."

What do you mean by the bolded part?

I mean that the Spirit of God is the Spirit of Life. Man's spirit only truly lives when in fellowship with the Spirit of Life.

When did this union take place? Are you referring to a similar type of union which we have now with God when we are filled with the Spirit of Christ?

The eternal life taken from man in the garden is given to those today who have faith in God through Christ. This Spirit of eternal Life is the Spirit of God himself. Oneness Pentecostals would stress the point that the Holy Spirit (of Life) is God himself. Again, we only truly live when in holy fellowship with God.

Hmmm, I guess I'm not too quick to catch on. Are you speaking about Adam and God in the garden of Eden? Why do you think Adam was filled with the Holy Spirit? What scripture tells us this?

The point is that Adam began in spiritual life. His sin resulted in not only physical death, but spiritual death as well. Adam's human spirit was no longer in communion with the eternal life giving Spirit of God as it had been before the fall.

We all are encased in sinful flesh. By your logic I wonder how God can dwell in us since we have sin abiding/dwelling in our flesh.

He can fellowship with us because our sin has been dealt with. We have been reconciled unto God and saved by his life. We have the righteousness of Christ imputed to our account and rest in his finished saving work on Calvary.

Cornelius was accepted of God and worked righteousness. He was not sinning actively with forethought.

Are you saying he did not need sin remission and the indwelling Spirit?

A couple of questions for you. How do you interpret these scriptures?

Acts 10:15 And the voice spake unto him again the second time, What God hath cleansed, that call not thou common.

I believe that what God cleanses should not be called common (or unclean). His purification is sufficient.

Acts 15:7-9....Men and brethren, ye know how that a good while ago God made choice among us, that the Gentiles by my mouth should hear the word of the gospel, and believe. And God, which knoweth the hearts, bare them witness, giving them the Holy Ghost, even as he did unto us; And put no difference between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith.

I realize God gave Cornelius the Spirit only AFTER he heard the Gospel and believed. God, who alone knows the heart of man, recognized that Cornelius' heart had received the good news of Christ and gave him the Spirit as witness to this internal miracle which had just taken place within the confines of Cornelius' heart. Cornelius' heart was purified by faith and the Spirit which was given to Cornelius to bear witness of his faith then overwhelmed him the point of manifesting tongues. This manifestation was for the benefit of Peter to show him that God had poured out eternal life on the Gentiles as well as on the Jews. Peter's peers later recognize this when they voice to all that God had granted also to the gentiles repentance unto life.

Thank you for your thoughts, mizpeh. God bless.

Back to work in the morning. Not quite sure when I'll be able to return.

[J-Roc]

Looks like he is going all TaeKwonDo on y'all

[mizpeh]

Originally Posted by Adino

Hello mizpeh, nice to meet you also.

Q: What happens when we sin (after receiving salvation)?
A: We recognize our sin, realize God dealt with it on Calvary and thank him for not holding it against us who have faith in him.

Q: Does the Spirit of God move out immediately and come back after we repent and are washed in blood of Jesus?
A: No. We abide in him and he in us.

These answers should cover your David question as well.

I see you have another post.... I will try to get to it when I can.

God bless

If we sin as a saint according to your initial response to kwaiQ, we will be separated from the Holy Spirit which is in us. Recognizing this sin is not the same as confessing and repenting of it. Would you call a saint who falls into sin as one that abides in Christ?

We abide in him if we don't sin. What prevents the Spirit from coming and going constantly in a Christian who is struggling with a sin?

Another example might be the churches in the book of Revelation. Why didn't Jesus take the candlestick away and remove his Spirit from the churches with whom he was displeased?

[Adino]

Originally Posted by mizpeh

If we sin as a saint according to your initial response to kwaiQ, we will be separated from the Holy Spirit which is in us. Recognizing this sin is not the same as confessing and repenting of it. Would you call a saint who falls into sin as one that abides in Christ?

We abide in him if we don't sin. What prevents the Spirit from coming and going constantly in a Christian who is struggling with a sin?

Another example might be the churches in the book of Revelation. Why didn't Jesus take the candlestick away and remove his Spirit from the churches with whom he was displeased?

I did not say the believer who sins will be separated from God. Because sin has been dealt with in the heart of the believer, the believer abides in Christ even if he should stumble. On the other hand, sin has not been dealt with in the heart of the unbeliever. The believer is righteous before God because he rests "in Christ," while the unbeliever rests "outside of Christ" on his own inadequate merit and is viewed as being under sin and unrighteous (Romans 3:9-10).

The believer perpetually abides in Christ (and the spirit of Christ in him) because he perpetually believes. Like each of us sitting at our computers are now in a constant state of "being" physically alive, believers in Christ are in a constant state of "being" spiritually alive. They are in a constant state of "being" righteous because they are perpetually receiving God's righteousness imputed to them through faith in Christ (Romans 3:21-22). In Christ we are perpetually alive and right before God, therefore perpetually forgiven. By virtue of constant faith in Christ who is our righteousness (1Corinthians 1:30) we remain constantly right before God...... even when we stumble.

Our rightness before God is not dependent on our right actions (Romans 4:4-8) but on God's righteousness. Since our salvation is based fully on a righteousness imputed to us we need not freak out when we stumble and fall. If we should find that we have stumbled we must simply rely on the cross, remember we are crucified with Christ and recognize we live not because of our works but because Christ lives in us by faith (Galatians 2:17-21).

The sins of those who have not believed are still imputed to them, they are still condemned to eternal separation from God and will remain thus until they are no longer under sin by virtue of being "in Christ" (John 3:14-18; Romans 8:1).

I am under the impression it is being suggested by many that Cornelius had the life of Christ living in him while he was yet under sin. I do not see this as being theologically possible.

Hope this helped. God bless.

[Trouvere]

Originally Posted by mizpeh

Adino,


What happens when we sin? Does the Spirit of God move out immediately and come back after we repent and are washed in blood of Jesus?

When King David sinned by committing adultery and murder why did he ask God not to take his Holy Spirit from him? He had already sinned yet he did not feel the Holy Spirit leave him.

In reading through these posts I have to ask where is the scriptural proof that King David had the Holy Ghost?