The LIE

[ThePastorsCoach]

This is to some old timers and students of Oneness History.

I am not trying to get into a theological debate with these questions.
I can argue both theological positions very well - so I am not asking for scriptures to PROVE your position.
I KNOW your position and don't need any condescending remarks.
I know what the Creeds say and I know the definition of the Trinity from Trinitarian scholars.
If you can't answer the questions - That is OK!
If you can - please let's do this in a civil and a Christian manner.
I am an Apostolic. I was baptized in Jesus name as has been my wife and children. I have always baptized every person I have baptized - in the name of Jesus. I have never been a Trinitarian and have never preached or believed the Trinitarian doctrine of three persons in the Godhead even though I was raised and educated in what you call - A "Trinitarian" Church.


This is the premise of the questions:
I was born and raised as a Fourth generational Pentecostal student of biblical and religious history. I have studied history and religion all of my life. I was raised in a Pentecostal home & church. My Great Grandmother, Grandmother and Mother all had the Holy Ghost and I was filled at the age of 5. I was baptized the first time, "In the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost". The F/S/HG was praised and mentioned, but I can never remember anything remotely resembling a remark as - "We believe in Three God's". They did not even preach the Trinity - just baptized in the titles. I know theologically - they believed it - but they did not understand it nor preach it.
I have NEVER heard in my church, home, College or anywhere else from any "Trinitarian" that they believe in "Three God's".

I have heard over and over again from "Apostolics" - that "Trinitarians believe in Three God's". I believe this to be a lie.
This lie had to start somewhere with somebody. I want to know where and when and with who did it start. Here we go!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


When did the lie start that Trinitarians believe in Three God's?
Who told this lie to start with?
Where was this lie first preached?
What year was the lie first told or preached?
Did the lie begin in the UPC or Independent Oneness ranks?
Where did you hear this lie for the first time?

[triumphant1]

Originally Posted by AtlantaBishop

This is to some old timers and students of Oneness History.

I am not trying to get into a theological debate with these questions.
I can argue both theological positions very well - so I am not asking for scriptures to PROVE your position.
I KNOW your position and don't need any condescending remarks.
I know what the Creeds say and I know the definition of the Trinity from Trinitarian scholars.
If you can't answer the questions - That is OK!
If you can - please let's do this in a civil and a Christian manner.
I am an Apostolic. I was baptized in Jesus name as has been my wife and children. I have always baptized every person I have baptized - in the name of Jesus. I have never been a Trinitarian and have never preached or believed the Trinitarian doctrine of three persons in the Godhead even though I was raised and educated in what you call - A "Trinitarian" Church.


This is the premise of the questions:
I was born and raised as a Fourth generational Pentecostal student of biblical and religious history. I have studied history and religion all of my life. I was raised in a Pentecostal home & church. My Great Grandmother, Grandmother and Mother all had the Holy Ghost and I was filled at the age of 5. I was baptized the first time, "In the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost". The F/S/HG was praised and mentioned, but I can never remember anything remotely resembling a remark as - "We believe in Three God's". They did not even preach the Trinity - just baptized in the titles. I know theologically - they believed it - but they did not understand it nor preach it.
I have NEVER heard in my church, home, College or anywhere else from any "Trinitarian" that they believe in "Three God's".

I have heard over and over again from "Apostolics" - that "Trinitarians believe in Three God's". I believe this to be a lie.
This lie had to start somewhere with somebody. I want to know where and when and with who did it start. Here we go!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


When did the lie start that Trinitarians believe in Three God's?
Who told this lie to start with?
Where was this lie first preached?
What year was the lie first told or preached?
Did the lie begin in the UPC or Independent Oneness ranks?
Where did you hear this lie for the first time?

I have only heard them say, "We believe in ONE God......"

[IAintMovin]

Originally Posted by AtlantaBishop

This is to some old timers and students of Oneness History.

I am not trying to get into a theological debate with these questions.
I can argue both theological positions very well - so I am not asking for scriptures to PROVE your position.
I KNOW your position and don't need any condescending remarks.
I know what the Creeds say and I know the definition of the Trinity from Trinitarian scholars.
If you can't answer the questions - That is OK!
If you can - please let's do this in a civil and a Christian manner.
I am an Apostolic. I was baptized in Jesus name as has been my wife and children. I have always baptized every person I have baptized - in the name of Jesus. I have never been a Trinitarian and have never preached or believed the Trinitarian doctrine of three persons in the Godhead even though I was raised and educated in what you call - A "Trinitarian" Church.


This is the premise of the questions:
I was born and raised as a Fourth generational Pentecostal student of biblical and religious history. I have studied history and religion all of my life. I was raised in a Pentecostal home & church. My Great Grandmother, Grandmother and Mother all had the Holy Ghost and I was filled at the age of 5. I was baptized the first time, "In the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost". The F/S/HG was praised and mentioned, but I can never remember anything remotely resembling a remark as - "We believe in Three God's". They did not even preach the Trinity - just baptized in the titles. I know theologically - they believed it - but they did not understand it nor preach it.
I have NEVER heard in my church, home, College or anywhere else from any "Trinitarian" that they believe in "Three God's".

I have heard over and over again from "Apostolics" - that "Trinitarians believe in Three God's". I believe this to be a lie.
This lie had to start somewhere with somebody. I want to know where and when and with who did it start. Here we go!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


When did the lie start that Trinitarians believe in Three God's?
Who told this lie to start with?
Where was this lie first preached?
What year was the lie first told or preached?
Did the lie begin in the UPC or Independent Oneness ranks?
Where did you hear this lie for the first time?

Not attempting to be rude or ugly, and I have no stones to throw at you, but with all your opening remarks I guess the ONLY person who could answer your question fully would be the one who first spoke it and since these sayings have been around for more years than anyone on this forum, I would say it cant be answered..........

I realize what you are saying though about a lot of Trinitarians, but I have dealt with many in Oklahoma who believe very strongly in three gods..............I realize they are in the minority, but they are out there.

God bless

[Brett Prince]

Originally Posted by AtlantaBishop

This is to some old timers and students of Oneness History.

I am not trying to get into a theological debate with these questions.
I can argue both theological positions very well - so I am not asking for scriptures to PROVE your position.
I KNOW your position and don't need any condescending remarks.
I know what the Creeds say and I know the definition of the Trinity from Trinitarian scholars.
If you can't answer the questions - That is OK!
If you can - please let's do this in a civil and a Christian manner.
I am an Apostolic. I was baptized in Jesus name as has been my wife and children. I have always baptized every person I have baptized - in the name of Jesus. I have never been a Trinitarian and have never preached or believed the Trinitarian doctrine of three persons in the Godhead even though I was raised and educated in what you call - A "Trinitarian" Church.


This is the premise of the questions:
I was born and raised as a Fourth generational Pentecostal student of biblical and religious history. I have studied history and religion all of my life. I was raised in a Pentecostal home & church. My Great Grandmother, Grandmother and Mother all had the Holy Ghost and I was filled at the age of 5. I was baptized the first time, "In the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost". The F/S/HG was praised and mentioned, but I can never remember anything remotely resembling a remark as - "We believe in Three God's". They did not even preach the Trinity - just baptized in the titles. I know theologically - they believed it - but they did not understand it nor preach it.
I have NEVER heard in my church, home, College or anywhere else from any "Trinitarian" that they believe in "Three God's".

I have heard over and over again from "Apostolics" - that "Trinitarians believe in Three God's". I believe this to be a lie.
This lie had to start somewhere with somebody. I want to know where and when and with who did it start. Here we go!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


When did the lie start that Trinitarians believe in Three God's?
Who told this lie to start with?
Where was this lie first preached?
What year was the lie first told or preached?
Did the lie begin in the UPC or Independent Oneness ranks?
Where did you hear this lie for the first time?

AB,

I partially agree with you and partially do not.

I would agree that a large portion of those who are called trinitarians, while having a very erroneous view of the Godhead, do not believe in three Gods--but that their theology does tend towards it in effect.

However, there is a portion of them that truly do believe in three Gods. Dr. David Jeremiah has said--and I heard him with my own ears--that the Holy Ghost is the "forgotten God."

Furthermore, looking in history, we can find many who truly did hold to a three God position.

Today, many trinitarians are neo-trinitarians in that they do not adhere to the old trinitarian theology. There are some that might even be called neo-oneness.

I believe the proper term for those who truly believe in three Gods would be "tritheists." Tritheism would be an absolute abomination in the sight of God.

The trinitarians differ as much in their theological view of the Godhead as we Oneness types do, whether we want to admit it or not. We have several prevalent streams of views, ranging from one extreme to the other.

[SDG]

Oh c'mon AB ... you've uncovered one of the pillars of the Matrix .... you'll pay dearly for this .... the Borg will NOT tolerate it.

[mizpeh]

I don't know when it was started BUT recently a friend in my church was discussing Oneness with a Trinitarian friend. Her friend said that when she gets to heaven she will see three.

There are many art works depicting three..an old man, Jesus the Son, and a dove. I realize this is symbolic, but can you say three?

Three is the impression many get when a Trinitarian says the Father is God, the Son is God, and the Holy Spirit is God but there is only one God.

If there is a misunderstanding I can see where it comes from.

[ILUVHIM]

I know of churches and organizations that teaches the trinity as Three distinct beings (1-2-3), not three manifestations of one God. Have you ever listened to Creflo Dollar?

[Thad]

Originally Posted by AtlantaBishop

This is to some old timers and students of Oneness History.

I am not trying to get into a theological debate with these questions.
I can argue both theological positions very well - so I am not asking for scriptures to PROVE your position.
I KNOW your position and don't need any condescending remarks.
I know what the Creeds say and I know the definition of the Trinity from Trinitarian scholars.
If you can't answer the questions - That is OK!
If you can - please let's do this in a civil and a Christian manner.
I am an Apostolic. I was baptized in Jesus name as has been my wife and children. I have always baptized every person I have baptized - in the name of Jesus. I have never been a Trinitarian and have never preached or believed the Trinitarian doctrine of three persons in the Godhead even though I was raised and educated in what you call - A "Trinitarian" Church.


This is the premise of the questions:
I was born and raised as a Fourth generational Pentecostal student of biblical and religious history. I have studied history and religion all of my life. I was raised in a Pentecostal home & church. My Great Grandmother, Grandmother and Mother all had the Holy Ghost and I was filled at the age of 5. I was baptized the first time, "In the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost". The F/S/HG was praised and mentioned, but I can never remember anything remotely resembling a remark as - "We believe in Three God's". They did not even preach the Trinity - just baptized in the titles. I know theologically - they believed it - but they did not understand it nor preach it.
I have NEVER heard in my church, home, College or anywhere else from any "Trinitarian" that they believe in "Three God's".

I have heard over and over again from "Apostolics" - that "Trinitarians believe in Three God's". I believe this to be a lie.
This lie had to start somewhere with somebody. I want to know where and when and with who did it start. Here we go!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


When did the lie start that Trinitarians believe in Three God's?
Who told this lie to start with?
Where was this lie first preached?
What year was the lie first told or preached?
Did the lie begin in the UPC or Independent Oneness ranks?
Where did you hear this lie for the first time?

AB,

I have encountered Trinitarians, that like you know of, were so close to Oneness that it was hard to even make out the difference. I've heard Bishop Patterson preach and he sounded SO oneness it was enough to make you shout

But then i have talked to other Trinitarians whose langauge was alarming! It was totally tritheistic. They literally said YES there are 3 gods yet 1 god- I was left going "Uuuuuh" ????? In their minds, because they use the lanuage, god the father god the son god the holy spirit there must be 3 seperate distinct individuals with their owns self beings.

This has led me to the conlusion that there are variations within the teaching of the Trinity. we have sung in many Trinitarian churches. some of them could care less that we were oneness. Others, upon hearing that we were oneness, immediatley cancelled us. So what i am saying is, the feelings work both ways.

I do think that a lot of trinitarians really do believe there is only One God and not 3. the problem is the termonology that they use such as "Persons" that causes Oneness people to recoil simply because when you use the word "persons" it implies a seperate being.

[revrandy]

Doesn't Bro. Benny teach in 9 or so manifestations?

I have heard Jimmy Swaggart, RW Schambach and many others preach oneness on the radio to ..but when they break down what they believe God is God and Jesus is Jehovah Junior... and the Holy Ghost while being the same is seperated from the two...

I have heard Hank Hanegraff preach the Trinitarian Doctrine.... to...

Many trinitarians have so many variations of Theology it's difficult to pin it down...but when you say Jesus is God / Not separated from the Father or the Holy Ghost they will argue until their face turns blue...*or others really don't care just as long as the checks, new cars and the "Spiritual Lottery" is preached...

or so it seems...

I think that it was born out of the Catholic Church...but today Theology isn't important as personal acquisitions and wealth while here on this earth...

I think the biggest LIE perpertuated is "Don't worry about Serving God as long as your Giving and the Check will be in the Mail".....

[pelathais]

When did it get started? Pretty much from the beginning. Gregory of Nyssa (died around 386) wrote an apologia entitled "On Not Three Gods."

When the Church's language made the shift from Greek to Latin, the "Fathers" began to use the Latin word "persona" instead of the Greek "prosopa."

Though both words had a similar meaning, in Latin philosophy "persona" was already developed to include the idea of "separate beings." The Greek "prosopa" didn't carry that baggage. So, in the West there was an almost immediate argument from some that the "Orthodox Christianity" of the Old Catholic Church was "tritheistic." Certain "heretics" of that time made the claim as did Jews and later Muslims. Many pagans remarked on what they saw as an inconsistency within Christian philosophy.

In many places orthodox believers themselves sometimes tended toward a tritheistic outlook as opposed to "what they're supposed to believe." Concerning Jesus Christ, the Nicene Creed states:

And in one Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God, begotten of the Father [the only-begotten; that is, of the essence of the Father, God of God], Light of Light, very God of very God, begotten, not made, being of one substance with the Father;

Today it's stated as, "God from God, Light from Light, True God from True God..."

Add to that, the Holy Spirit,

the Lord and Giver of life, who proceedeth from the Father and the Son, who with the Father and the Son together is worshiped and glorified, who spake by the prophets...

and it's easy to see how even many Trinitarians get a tritheistic view. The language of the creeds inherently lends itself to the idea of "three seperate Beings who are all called "God."

The charge of "Tritheism" has been repeated by many since antiquity.