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Old 10-12-2007, 10:09 AM
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Pastor Keith Pastor Keith is offline
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The UPCI Is Not Alone In Church Splits

Looks like the UPCI will have some company with the possibilities of churches splitting or leaving the organization.

Interesting to see what those in the Presbyterian Church are leaving over, truth, salvation and sexuality, now those are things to leave/split a liberal group over.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20071012/...terian_split_2
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Old 10-12-2007, 11:16 AM
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The PAW may be having some problems also.

This is from a newspaper called The Chichago Defender
at the following link
http://www.chicagodefender.com/page/...ArticleID=9917

Here is the article:


Bishop Brazier leaves PAW

by Kathy Chaney
October 11, 2007

In an unexpected move that could cause fiscal strain to an international faith-based organization, a well-known South Side church has severed its ties with the group after 75 years.
Citing differing doctrinal views, Bishop Arthur Brazier of the Apostolic Church of God has pulled the church from under the auspices of the Pentecostal Assemblies of the World, Inc. (PAW) Brazier has been the pastor of Apostolic for 46 years. It was founded in 1932.
At issue is the non-progressive mindset of many of the organization's executive board members. There is limited objectivity of who is deemed an appropriate speaker at the PAW's national conference. Brazier, including others, felt that non-Apostolic members should be allowed to speak at the convention. Long-standing "status quo" members thought otherwise.
In short, Brazier felt there was too much exclusiveness within the organization. There are more than 1,000 churches in the PAW, with a total of about one million members.
Brazier is the Illinois diocesan of the PAW, with 80 churches under his tutelage. With a 20,450-member congregation, his church had the largest Illinois membership. Before Brazier's departure, there were about 35,000 members in the state.
Illinois is a major contributor to PAW's financial structure. The organization has not been financially strong on the operational side, and without the majority of Illinois' membership on the roster, the fiscal outlook could weaken, according to a certified public accountant and the pastor of another church that is leaving the organization, said District Elder Andrew Singleton.
Singleton, pastor of Victory Apostolic Church in Chicago Heights, Ill. also is pulling his congregation of 2,000 out of PAW.
"My theological views, over the years, have diverged from the Pentecostal Assemblies of the World. We were not going down the same path together. I believe in eternal security of the believer. Once the believer is saved, that person will not lose their salvation. The organization does not believe in that," Brazier told the Defender.
Once a sinner is saved, then backslides, their salvation is lost. That's what the PAW's believe has been for a while, he said. "We've been at odds on this for a number of years," Brazier said.
Brazier made the decision about two weeks ago after the organization's executive board meeting at its Indianapolis, Ind. headquarters. After discussing the matter with his congregation, he notified the head of the organization, verbally, of his resignation, effective immediately.
"My congregation is 100 percent with me. I plan to submit my formal resignation within the next month," he said.
While the churches under his leadership expressed their desire for Brazier to stay with the organization, they understood his position to leave. In turn, he encouraged them to not leave.
"I'm not trying to start an organization and I'm not joining one. I will remain independent," Brazier said.
The Presiding Bishop of the PAW, Dr. Horace E. Smith, said Brazier's exit will be a blow to the organization but is holding out hope that his mind will change.
Brazier said, "No."
Smith, pastor of the Apostolic Faith Church in Bronzeville, does share some of Brazier's concerns but said it's reasonable to assume that true change can be made. Smith's congregation is about 2,500 members.
"Some of us will be more inclusive. Although Brazier is 86 years old, he has a young mind. There is a group of us that are more progressive and forward-thinking. We are more inclusive than exclusive," Smith said.
When asked if he would consider following Brazier's lead if he were not PAW's presiding bishop, he said, "Yes." He said his philosophy mirrors Brazier's.
"It is better to change something from the inside. Brazier has been in this organization all of his life. He's seen the evolution. He's fought all of the battles. I'm younger than he is coming into this situation. I don't have 'battle fatigue,'" Smith said.
Singleton, a former member of Brazier's congregation, said he also decided to part ways with the organization and resigned his post as a district elder over seven Illinois churches, effective Dec. 31.
"The number one reason was my limited time and I no longer view it as a progressive organization. Their views are not conducive to the church growth in the 21st century," Singleton added.
Singleton said several pastors within the state are only in the organization because of Brazier.
"He has provided wonderful leadership for the years he has been a bishop. With him gone, unless there are strong reasons for them to stay, there's very high likelihood that some of them will leave. They were in it for him," Singleton said.
In the end, Smith hopes that Brazier and others that are considering leaving the organization could be able to "find not only a middle road, but a road forward."
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Old 10-12-2007, 11:26 AM
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Wow...now that PAW thing is major doctrinal stuff.
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Old 10-12-2007, 11:30 AM
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Bishop Brazier for years has tried to sow this heresy in the PAW for years. They should have disfellowshipped him years ago. Also he has been a primary source of having Trinitarians preaching their meetings. He and Jones. It is sad that the Bishop board had no guts now he leaves on his own taking preachers with him. The 'leaven' of Unconditional Eternal Security has effected a one time great organization. Too little too late.
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Old 10-12-2007, 11:39 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve Epley View Post
Bishop Brazier for years has tried to sow this heresy in the PAW for years. They should have disfellowshipped him years ago. Also he has been a primary source of having Trinitarians preaching their meetings. He and Jones. It is sad that the Bishop board had no guts now he leaves on his own taking preachers with him. The 'leaven' of Unconditional Eternal Security has effected a one time great organization. Too little too late.

By the way, I have heard over the years some of the various moral problems in the PAW with ministery of music people, didn't put a lot of stock in it, until a intern in my ministry spent the summer ministering in a PAW church somewhere west of the Mississippi, the current organ player has fathered various children with different mothers, still unwed, the other musicians show up, collect a check and leave during the preaching and ministry time. SAD!
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Old 10-12-2007, 12:30 PM
Consapostolic1 Consapostolic1 is offline
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Didn't the PAW have a big disagreement at there general conference in CA? I believe it was over the lineup which included trinitarians preaching at there GC.
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Old 10-12-2007, 12:31 PM
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In the late 80's Bishop P. L. Scott of St. Louis was writing articles in the Outlook against UES. I heard Bishop Farris say on radio I cannot believe we are even discussing this doctrine. They were too slow to purge this doctrine now it will have an effect on them. Bishop Brazier pastors their largest church. And the leaders are moaning about him leaving. Many PAW folks seem to practice UES even if in theory they do NOT believe it.
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Old 10-12-2007, 12:42 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve Epley View Post
Bishop Brazier for years has tried to sow this heresy in the PAW for years. They should have disfellowshipped him years ago. Also he has been a primary source of having Trinitarians preaching their meetings. He and Jones. It is sad that the Bishop board had no guts now he leaves on his own taking preachers with him. The 'leaven' of Unconditional Eternal Security has effected a one time great organization. Too little too late.
I have heard Bishop Brazier teach on eternal security and I don't believe it is the same as "unconditional" eternal security. He teaches that people that have been born again can't be lost because Christ is the author and finisher of our faith. ie: God is the instrument of our salvation, not what we do or don't do. There are many scriptures to support his position and he has contemplated the doctrine profoundly, not an off the cuff belief.
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Old 10-12-2007, 12:59 PM
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Steve Epley Steve Epley is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dedicated Mind View Post
I have heard Bishop Brazier teach on eternal security and I don't believe it is the same as "unconditional" eternal security. He teaches that people that have been born again can't be lost because Christ is the author and finisher of our faith. ie: God is the instrument of our salvation, not what we do or don't do. There are many scriptures to support his position and he has contemplated the doctrine profoundly, not an off the cuff belief.
It is a false doctrine period. Bishop Haywood denounced this false doctrine years ago and also Elder Tobin. His views are the same as any Baptist preacher. It is an infection of heresy they should have disfellowshipped him years ago.
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Old 10-12-2007, 01:03 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve Epley View Post
It is a false doctrine period. Bishop Haywood denounced this false doctrine years ago and also Elder Tobin. His views are the same as any Baptist preacher. It is an infection of heresy they should have disfellowshipped him years ago.
so you believe someone who has been born again (acts 2:38) can be lost?? do you know of any examples?
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