Is the Father the Son?

#1 09-07-2007, 09:48 PM

According to the Oneness doctrine Jesus is the Father. Is this true in reverse? Is the Father also the Son?

Praxeas · #2 09-08-2007, 01:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Believer

According to the Oneness doctrine Jesus is the Father. Is this true in reverse? Is the Father also the Son?

Little bit of a confusion....Oneness doctrine does NOT say the Son is the Father...the reverse of that would be is the Father also the Son.

mizpeh · #3 09-08-2007, 02:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Believer

According to the Oneness doctrine Jesus is the Father. Is this true in reverse? Is the Father also the Son?

The Oneness doctrine teaches there is one God who manifests himself as Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. These titles are used to show relationship, attributes, work, and substance.

God's manifestation as Father is revealed in the Bible as Father of creation, Father of the Son, and Father of those who are born again of the Spirit. The word, Father, implies a relationship.

God's manifestation as the Son is God is his revelation of himself in flesh, not an indwelling but a true man, who died for our sins. He is the only begotten Son of God because of a supernatural conception of the Holy Spirit.

God in his manifestation as Spirit is not only speaking to his nature but the active interaction of God with his creation.

When you say the Son is the Father, you are misapplying these descriptive terms. The Son refers to God in his mode as man. The Father refers to God in his mode as Spirit.

Isaiah 9:6 declares the Son shall be called the everlasting Father, the mighty God. I have no problem saying the Son is the Father manifest in the flesh. or the same God who is called the Father is also called the Son yet in a different mode of existence.

Kansas Preacher · #4 09-08-2007, 11:05 AM

Jesus identified the Father as a Spirit in John 4:23-24. When you think of the Father, you should think of the eternal, omnipotent, omnipresent Spirit.

The angel identified the Son as "that holy thing which was born of Mary" (Luke 1:35). Thus, the Son was the humanity which was born of Mary.

The Father is not the Son, nor is the Son the Father. However, Jesus is both Father and Son.

Your spirit is not your flesh, nor is your flesh your spirit. However, you are not two persons.

I hope this helps.

#5 09-08-2007, 02:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Praxeas

Little bit of a confusion....Oneness doctrine does NOT say the Son is the Father...the reverse of that would be is the Father also the Son.

Actually the confuse is coming from you. I said that Oneness say that Jesus is the Father. According to scripture Jesus is the Son of God. Oneness say that Jesus is also the Father. So, is the Father also the Son?

#6 09-08-2007, 02:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kansas Preacher

Jesus identified the Father as a Spirit in John 4:23-24. When you think of the Father, you should think of the eternal, omnipotent, omnipresent Spirit.

The angel identified the Son as "that holy thing which was born of Mary" (Luke 1:35). Thus, the Son was the humanity which was born of Mary.

The Father is not the Son, nor is the Son the Father. However, Jesus is both Father and Son.

Your spirit is not your flesh, nor is your flesh your spirit. However, you are not two persons.

I hope this helps.

If the Father isn't the Son, then you have two "persons." You have the Father and the Son, and neither is the other.

You're right, my spirit is not my flesh, but my spirit and my flesh is one person...ME.

#7 09-08-2007, 02:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mizpeh

Isaiah 9:6 declares the Son shall be called the everlasting Father, the mighty God. I have no problem saying the Son is the Father manifest in the flesh. or the same God who is called the Father is also called the Son yet in a different mode of existence.

And if we take Isa. 9:6, according to your translation, it says that the Son is the Father. This statement has already has been rejected by a Oneness pastor in this thread already. So, according to you and the verse you posted... is the Son the Father?

Praxeas · #8 09-08-2007, 02:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Believer

Actually the confuse is coming from you. I said that Oneness say that Jesus is the Father. According to scripture Jesus is the Son of God. Oneness say that Jesus is also the Father. So, is the Father also the Son?

No, it was your question. It's like me asking you why you believe in three gods knowing that you don't. You said "Oneness say Jesus is the Father" then you said the converse of that is, "is the Father the Son?".

You say you used to be Oneness, then you should know that OPs do NOT equate Father with Son.

So then your question might be more along the lines of explaining that.

From my perspective when OPs say "Jesus is the Father" they mean the "person" who is the Son is also the person that is the Father. The DISTINTION that exists between Father and Son is not one of Hypostasis, but rather of nature and existentially. HOW the Son exists is different than the Father because of the Human nature. HOW the Son thinks is different because of the human nature (mind, will, psyche)

In other words they would say Jesus (the person) is both Father and Son in two distinct modes of being or manifestations or forms or whatever term one uses.

When they say "Jesus is the Father" they are NOT saying "The son is the Father"...and as I said you were once oneness so you should know that (in fact from all the dialog at CARM and other places you should know that)...

So the question is a little confusing and perhaps needs to be rephrased that's all.

Praxeas · #9 09-08-2007, 02:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Believer

If the Father isn't the Son, then you have two "persons." You have the Father and the Son, and neither is the other.

You're right, my spirit is not my flesh, but my spirit and my flesh is one person...ME.

If I said "then the dodge isn't the chevy, so you must have two persons" would you agree? What you are doing is using your own theology to define ours. We woudl say the Father isn't the Son in nature when it comes to the Human nature OF the Son and existentially, when it comes to HOW the Son exists or the mode or manner of His being. And also we would say the Father is NOT the Son in will, mind and or phsyche. But in "person" or as the creed uses, the hypostasis, Father and Son are the same.

Then again in person, as the greek word puts it, the prosopon, Father and Son are NOT the same.

Hypostatically they are the same
Psychologically they are not.
Father is the same Person in relation and being through the Divine nature and essence and Son is that person functioning and existing in relation to God and man through the Human nature exclusively (because of the Kenosis)

Praxeas · #10 09-08-2007, 03:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Believer

And if we take Isa. 9:6, according to your translation, it says that the Son is the Father. This statement has already has been rejected by a Oneness pastor in this thread already. So, according to you and the verse you posted... is the Son the Father?

It's been rejected to mean there is no distinction at all between Father and Son. However it has not been rejected to mean that both Father and Son are the same Ego Eimi or the Ehyeh Asher Ehyeh...the single "WHO or He" that Trinitarians often say "God Himself is revealed in three persons"...just that when we say God Himself we really mean Himself...one individual Person who is the I AM and who has always existed exclusively as God in nature. At the incarnation He began to exist similtaneously as the man Christ Jesus with all the human qualities.

I would agree with you though that most OPs have not throught this through when quoting this verse because without explanation it would seem to the Trinitarian they are saying Father is the Son with no distinctions whatsoever.

To the trinitarian though it often seems to us, the ONLY distinction that exists is person. We deny that notion that there are other things that we should look at that not only makes them distinct from one another but also makes they FUNCTIONALLY different to the point that on a pyschological level there are two persons, but not on a hypostatic level.

Father and Son ontologically share the same Divine nature/essence but the Son, on an ontological level includes the Humanity. The humanity is limited to only that sphere of being we call "The man Christ Jesus" while ontologically and hypostatically the Father continues to exist and function as He always has been external to the Son and external to the temporal world.

Now, if anyone did not have a clue what I just said...perhaps I'll try to get to it later. I have a wedding to get ready for. later