Father vs The Holy Spirit

[Rico]

This is a question that has been brewing in my mind for quite some time. What is the difference in the manifestation of the Father vs that of the Holy Spirit? It is my understanding that we get three from the following scripture:

1jo 5:7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.

However, it is my understanding that this scripture is not found in the original manuscripts because it was added at some point in history. I could not find anywhere else that mentions three as being Father, Son, and Holy Ghost. I can see how "the Son" would be considered a manifestation, God in the flesh. But it seems to me that the Holy Spirit and the Father aren't described in the Word as different manifestations. The Bible doesn't say the Father overshadowed Mary to conceive Jesus. It says the Holy Spirit did, but Jesus refers to Him as the Father. It seem to me that there are only two actual manifestations of God in the Bible, not three. Can someone shed some light on this for me?

There are a couple of passages in John where some try to insert the trinity. Jesus' baptism, the discussion of "another comforter".

I believe that we need to let the Bible speak for itself and not try to insert words or concepts that just aren't there.

BTW, There is definitely a distinction between the "Father" the "Son" and the "Holy Spirit".... not a strong enough of a distinction to have them be separate "persons" (which denotes tritheism - which most trinitarians do not believe).

I think that this is where the use of the word, "manifestation" comes into play.

[sola gratia]

Originally Posted by Rico

This is a question that has been brewing in my mind for quite some time. What is the difference in the manifestation of the Father vs that of the Holy Spirit? It is my understanding that we get three from the following scripture:

1jo 5:7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.

However, it is my understanding that this scripture is not found in the original manuscripts because it was added at some point in history. I could not find anywhere else that mentions three as being Father, Son, and Holy Ghost. I can see how "the Son" would be considered a manifestation, God in the flesh. But it seems to me that the Holy Spirit and the Father aren't described in the Word as different manifestations. The Bible doesn't say the Father overshadowed Mary to conceive Jesus. It says the Holy Spirit did, but Jesus refers to Him as the Father. It seem to me that there are only two actual manifestations of God in the Bible, not three. Can someone shed some light on this for me?

Lets start with a few basics ...
Luk 3:22 And the Holy Ghost descended in a bodily shape like a dove upon him, and a voice came from heaven, which said, Thou art my beloved Son; in thee I am well pleased.

Certainly three "manifestations' of very distinct, personal, independent manner here.

Act 15:28 For it seemed good to the Holy Ghost, and to us, to lay upon you no greater burden than these necessary things;

pretty distinct here....

Equally important is to understand that Jesus is the Son of the Father in relationship, Trinitarians believe on an eternal level, in this manner His sonship was not conditioned by whom presumably fathered the incarnation… although I don’t get all caught up in that

‘And do not take Your Holy Spirit from me.’ (Psalm 51:11, NKJV.)


Oneness folk claim that God assumed the manifestations of Father, Son and Holy Spirit at either Jesus’ birth or nine months before this at his conception in the virgin’s womb. However, both of these positions are problematic for the Oneness view, because a thousand years before Jesus’ birth, King David asked God (the Father) to; ‘do not take Your Holy Spirit from me,’ (Psalm 51:11). But this verse doesn’t make any sense in the light of the Oneness claim that the Father, Son and Holy Spirit did not even come into being until about a thousand years later at Jesus’ birth or conception (Bernard, 129). So how do the Oneness Churches explain the Holy Spirit existing here, a thousand years before they claim that he first came into being?

Furthermore, the pronoun ‘Your’ at Psalm 51:11 causes yet more problems for the Oneness Pentecostal position. For David here prays to one divine person, namely God the Father, whom he then petitions, that another divine person (Holy Spirit), isn’t taken away from him. Yet Oneness theology incredibly claims that the Holy Spirit is God the Father, and that they are really the very same single person of God, but operating in different roles. But the pronoun ‘Your,’ cannot possibly be misinterpreted as David speaking to the one divine person of God, for if this were true then David would have said something like this: ‘Do not leave me Father, for you are the Holy Spirit.’

[Praxeas]

Originally Posted by Iron_Bladder

‘And do not take Your Holy Spirit from me.’ (Psalm 51:11, NKJV.)


Oneness folk claim that God assumed the manifestations of Father, Son and Holy Spirit at either Jesus’ birth or nine months before this at his conception in the virgin’s womb. However, both of these positions are problematic for the Oneness view, because a thousand years before Jesus’ birth, King David asked God (the Father) to; ‘do not take Your Holy Spirit from me,’ (Psalm 51:11).

I've never said God assumed the form of Holy Spirit at the incarnation. God IS Spirit, according to Jesus, that IS HIS nature. God IS Holy. God has ALWAYS been Holy Spirit

But this verse doesn’t make any sense in the light of the Oneness claim that the Father, Son and Holy Spirit did not even come into being until about a thousand years later at Jesus’ birth or conception (Bernard, 129). So how do the Oneness Churches explain the Holy Spirit existing here, a thousand years before they claim that he first came into being?

Please Quote Bernard. Give chapter and topic title, not just a page and expect us to find what you think you read

Furthermore, the pronoun ‘Your’ at Psalm 51:11 causes yet more problems for the Oneness Pentecostal position. For David here prays to one divine person, namely God the Father, whom he then petitions, that another divine person (Holy Spirit), isn’t taken away from him.

No no no. He says take not YOUR (referring to the person you just called God the Father) Holy Spirit from me. It's the Spirit OF God. It's God's Spirit. He did not say "Take not the other person from me" nor did he say "Take not The Holy Spirit from me" which in itself would not mean a second person either. But as you pointed out he said take not YOUR Holy Spirit from me. God has a Spirit just like angels and men do.

Yet Oneness theology incredibly claims that the Holy Spirit is God the Father, and that they are really the very same single person of God, but operating in different roles.

I would say God the Father IS Spirit according to Jesus in Jn 4:24 and so when we see the word Spirit in the bible the word is referring to the essence of being of God. Since God IS Spirit the two terms can be used synonymously for Him personally

But the pronoun ‘Your,’ cannot possibly be misinterpreted as David speaking to the one divine person of God, for if this were true then David would have said something like this: ‘Do not leave me Father, for you are the Holy Spirit.’

Really? Did you learn that in english class? If I said to you IB "IB your spirit is human" does that mean your spirit is someone OTHER than you?!

[Pressing-On]

It just seems rather obvious, IMO, that King David is simply saying, "Your Spirit that protects me, comforts me, guides me, don't take that work out of my life."

I can't see that any other way or that he is talking about something outside of God himself.

If I was sitting on a rock by the river, that would be my mindset, anyway. I'm just putting myself in David's shoes and trying to think how I would be thinking.

After all, David understands the wonder of creation. He doesn't see a problem with not seeing God. He knows there is action involved by the Spirit of God that moves.

"It is in Him that we live, move and have our being."

Originally Posted by Iron_Bladder

‘And do not take Your Holy Spirit from me.’ (Psalm 51:11, NKJV.)

Does the Hebrew of that passage really use the title Holy Spirit? Could David have been asking God not to take His Spirit (which has the characteristic of being holy) from him? Notice the KJV renders the passage "and take not thy holy spirit from me." Notice that it is not rendered as a title. Just because translators choose to change the phrase into a title doesn't make it right and certainly doesn't make it the intent of the original writer. Before you can proceed further regarding this passage, you must prove that the title Holy Spirit is the correct translation.

Oneness folk claim that God assumed the manifestations of Father, Son and Holy Spirit at either Jesus’ birth or nine months before this at his conception in the virgin’s womb. However, both of these positions are problematic for the Oneness view, because a thousand years before Jesus’ birth, King David asked God (the Father) to; ‘do not take Your Holy Spirit from me,’ (Psalm 51:11).

You wrongly assume that King David is specifically referring to God's fatherhood. You MUST take the passage to mean exactly and only as written and there is NOTHING in that passage that refers at all to God's fatherhood!

But this verse doesn’t make any sense in the light of the Oneness claim that the Father, Son and Holy Spirit did not even come into being until about a thousand years later at Jesus’ birth or conception (Bernard, 129). So how do the Oneness Churches explain the Holy Spirit existing here, a thousand years before they claim that he first came into being?

God is eternal! HE has always existed. But answer this: What is it about GOD that makes HIM "the Father"?

Furthermore, the pronoun ‘Your’ at Psalm 51:11 causes yet more problems for the Oneness Pentecostal position. For David here prays to one divine person, namely God the Father, whom he then petitions, that another divine person (Holy Spirit), isn’t taken away from him.

Yes, David is praying to GOD, not to "the Father."

Yet Oneness theology incredibly claims that the Holy Spirit is God the Father, and that they are really the very same single person of God, but operating in different roles. But the pronoun ‘Your,’ cannot possibly be misinterpreted as David speaking to the one divine person of God, for if this were true then David would have said something like this: ‘Do not leave me Father, for you are the Holy Spirit.’

Nonsense! Whose spirit is it? Who is David speaking to? If you say, "the Father" (as if there's a separate divine being called "the Father" and another divine being called "the Son" and another "the Holy Spirit," which is really three divine beings and, thus, three Gods) then you have to say that the spirit is the Father's spirit (because the pronoun "your" necessitates ownership).

Iron Bladder is running loose in hear?

Sheesh.

[BobDylan]

Originally Posted by Chan

Does the Hebrew of that passage really use the title Holy Spirit? Could David have been asking God not to take His Spirit (which has the characteristic of being holy) from him? Notice the KJV renders the passage "and take not thy holy spirit from me." Notice that it is not rendered as a title. Just because translators choose to change the phrase into a title doesn't make it right and certainly doesn't make it the intent of the original writer. Before you can proceed further regarding this passage, you must prove that the title Holy Spirit is the correct translation.[/COLOR]

You wrongly assume that King David is specifically referring to God's fatherhood. You MUST take the passage to mean exactly and only as written and there is NOTHING in that passage that refers at all to God's fatherhood!

God is eternal! HE has always existed. But answer this: What is it about GOD that makes HIM "the Father"?

Yes, David is praying to GOD, not to "the Father."

Nonsense! Whose spirit is it? Who is David speaking to? If you say, "the Father" (as if there's a separate divine being called "the Father" and another divine being called "the Son" and another "the Holy Spirit," which is really three divine beings and, thus, three Gods) then you have to say that the spirit is the Father's spirit (because the pronoun "your" necessitates ownership).

These are great points Chan... also note that if David had identified the Holy Spirit as a distinct person from the father, he would have simply addressed the Holy Spirit personally: "Holy Spirit, do not depart from me..." But as you pointed out, David denotes ownership directed to God... the attribute of God that is His personal Holy Spirit.

P.S. I wanted to completely quote all of your text as well as Iron Bladder's, but it only let me quote your text. Can anyone help me do a "quote all" type function when trying to quote someone? Thanks!