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Old 02-05-2020, 09:01 PM
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Esaias Esaias is offline
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Timing of the crucifixion etc

Scenario 1: The Last Supper was a Passover meal. Therefore the lambs had already been killed by the priests earlier that day, Jesus was therefore crucified on 15 Abib (a sabbath).

Scenario 2: The Last Supper was either not a Passover meal or was being kept according to a sectarian calendar not used by the priests. Jesus was crucified at about the same time the lambs were being offered, on 14 Abib, day before the sabbath of 15 Abib.

Which is correct, and why? Or is there a third alternative?

Please note, this is NOT about "Wed, Thurs, or Fri crucifixion" debates.
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Old 02-06-2020, 12:39 AM
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Re: Timing of the crucifixion etc

Quote:
Originally Posted by Esaias View Post
Scenario 1: The Last Supper was a Passover meal. Therefore the lambs had already been killed by the priests earlier that day, Jesus was therefore crucified on 15 Abib (a sabbath).

Scenario 2: The Last Supper was either not a Passover meal or was being kept according to a sectarian calendar not used by the priests. Jesus was crucified at about the same time the lambs were being offered, on 14 Abib, day before the sabbath of 15 Abib.

Which is correct, and why? Or is there a third alternative?

Please note, this is NOT about "Wed, Thurs, or Fri crucifixion" debates.
Scenario 2: because it fulfillment of a type and shadow. Study it out and you will see even when peter preached the new birth message or I can say the plan of salvation it was a perfect fulfillment of mosses on the mountain getting the 10 commandments which was the plan of salvation for them at that point.
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Old 02-06-2020, 09:49 PM
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Re: Timing of the crucifixion etc

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Scenario 2: because it fulfillment of a type and shadow. Study it out and you will see even when peter preached the new birth message or I can say the plan of salvation it was a perfect fulfillment of mosses on the mountain getting the 10 commandments which was the plan of salvation for them at that point.
I have always understood scenario 2 to be correct. But I want it to be correct because that is how it went down, NOT because it fits my Christian typology. Does that make sense? I'd like to hear from anyone who can lay out their understanding without reverse engineering it from a need to have certain typologies fulfilled. Not saying that is what you are doing, I'm just saying I'd like to stick to the facts of what happened and derive any typology fulfillments from those facts, rather than the other way around. Hope that made sense.
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Old 02-07-2020, 12:27 AM
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Re: Timing of the crucifixion etc

Jesus must have been crucified after Passover during the feast of unleavened bread. It would seem that it would have been in the middle of the feast of unleavened bread. I understand that the day following the feast days of unleavened bread that a sheaf was to be waved to God (firstfruits). It seems that would coincide with the accession of Christ and would mark the fifty day countdown to Pentecost. I think it would be in the middle of the week of Passover week (unleavened bread).
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Old 02-07-2020, 12:28 AM
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Re: Timing of the crucifixion etc

Interesting, I have never heard that one.
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Old 02-07-2020, 12:39 AM
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Re: Timing of the crucifixion etc

Check out Leviticus 23:9-16
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Old 02-07-2020, 12:56 PM
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Re: Timing of the crucifixion etc

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I've always understood the waving of the sheaf corresponded with His resurrection (and first ascension that same day). He rose the day after the sabbath which occurred the day after the crucifixion. Thus He would have been crucified on 14 Abib, was in the tomb 15 Abib (first day of unleavened bread, a sabbath), then rose 16 Abib (day after the sabbath, when the sheaf of the firstfruits was presented).
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Old 02-07-2020, 01:52 PM
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Re: Timing of the crucifixion etc

Quote:
Originally Posted by Esaias View Post
Scenario 1: The Last Supper was a Passover meal. Therefore the lambs had already been killed by the priests earlier that day, Jesus was therefore crucified on 15 Abib (a sabbath).

Scenario 2: The Last Supper was either not a Passover meal or was being kept according to a sectarian calendar not used by the priests. Jesus was crucified at about the same time the lambs were being offered, on 14 Abib, day before the sabbath of 15 Abib.

Which is correct, and why? Or is there a third alternative?

Please note, this is NOT about "Wed, Thurs, or Fri crucifixion" debates.

Interesting thread...really looking forward to seeing how this plays out.
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Old 02-07-2020, 06:59 PM
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Re: Timing of the crucifixion etc

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Interesting thread...really looking forward to seeing how this plays out.
A few facts for consideration:

The Sadducees and the Pharisees differed on their interpretation of Lev 23:10-15. The Pharisees maintained that the Passover lamb was offered on 14 Abib, the 15 Abib was the first day of unleavened bread (a sabbath) and the day after that sabbath was the waving of the firstfruits (on the 16th of Abib). Pentecost was 50 days later. Whatever day of the week the 16th of Abib fell on, Pentecost would fall on that same day of the week 7 weeks later.

The Sadducees maintained the lambs were offered on the 14th, the 15th was a sabbath, but the firstfruit sheaf was waved on the day after the WEEKLY SABBATH that fell during the feast of unleavened bread. Thus it would always be waved on a sunday, and Pentecost 50 days later would always be on a sunday as well.

Many priests were aligned with the Sadducees (but many others weren't). In any event, the Pharisees controlled much of the official interpretation of torah, so the actual practice at the temple was in accordance with Pharisee understanding not the Sadducee understanding. In other words, the actual first century practice was to offer the lambs on 14 Abib, 15 Abib was a sabbath, and 16 Abib was the waving of the firstfruits, and Pentecost was 50 days later.

Now, the method or schedule was as follows: During the daytime portion of 14 Abib, from about noon to late afternoon, the lambs were killed at the temple. The offeror would take the dead lamb home and roast it. That night (the beginning of 15 Abib, a sabbath) the family or household would eat it and have prayer, singing, and recounting the Exodus story. Then after the sabbath of 15 Abib, a sheaf of thefirstfruits would be brought to the temple to be waved, on the 16th of Abib.

If the Lord died about the same time as the passover lambs were being killed in the temple, then the Last Supper could not have been a standard Passover meal. The lamb they would have used would have been killed at the temple on the 13th of Abib, something the priests would not do. So it could not have been a Passover meal.

On the other hand, if it WAS a Passover meal, then the last supper took place at night on a sabbath, but this seems contrary to Judas going out that night and making a financial transaction with the leaders to betray Jesus. Also John 13:29 indicates the disciples did not think it was a sabbath. So clearly that event was not on 15 Abib, which means the last supper was not a Passover supper.

But in turn that raises the question about Luke 22:8-15. Which implies it WAS a Passover meal. Although, the text doesn't REQUIRE it to be. They were getting ready, and had a fellowship meal on 13 Abib in anticipation of a Passover meal the next evening. There is precedent for this in rabbinic custom, where a rabbi and his students share a special meal at the students' "graduation" if you will the day prior to a major feast.
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Old 02-07-2020, 07:51 PM
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Re: Timing of the crucifixion etc

Did the passover come before the first day of the feast of unleavened bread? For instance: If the passover was on the 14th day of Abib then the feast of unleavened bread would begin on the 15th and go to the 21st. The sheave offering of the firstfruits was to be waved on the first of the week following the feast of unleavened bread (22nd???). The 22nd would the sheave wave symbolic of the first ascension (that was what I was meaning originally).
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