Render Unto Caesar?

[Aquila]

A friend and I were discussing the issues relating to America's social safety net and he made the point that the church used to be the institution that assisted the poor, the sick, and the unemployed. Of course, in modern times the population and the urbanization of America has produced so much need in various areas, most churches could never be able to handle the load.

However, if churches are so eager to help with the poor, the sick, the unemployed, the widows, and the orphans, would they be willing to surrender their tax exemption and pay into the system to fund these social programs?

According to IRS statistics, in 2013 churches and religious institutions received religious tax exemptions and subsidies to the tune of $83.5 billion dollars. Imagine the revenue that could be generated for social programs if churches paid taxes like the rest of us.

Should churches, who used to serve as our social safety net, pay taxes?

What are your thoughts?

[UnTraditional]

That is placing the power of welfare back into the hands of big government. Welfare does not work. Why? because it causes a dependency mentality, and in later generations, an entitlement mentality, as we see going on in America right now.

Which is better? A nation that gives people money and makes them mental and spiritual slaves to the whims of government, removing personal responsibility and initiative, or helping people through quality education, getting them off of welfare and into the workforce, thus enabling them to pay taxes, and continue the circle of a hand up and not a hand out? enabling an individual to work is much more productive to society than giving free hand outs.

I am a good example. At one time, i was a diabetic, over 600 lbs., with an enlarged heart and was destined to die early. I was able then and there to get support from the government, but I chose not to. I have since lost over 300 lbs., am no longer on diabetic medication or blood pressure meds, and just celebrated my 22nd year of work as a custodian. Sure, my pay is not much, not what I feel I deserve for the work I do, but it is steady, and soon, I'll have a good portion of my bills paid off.

My cousins on the other hand were and are hypochondriacs. They stayed on Social Security, welfare, all sorts of support. The government's handout enabled them to stay on drugs, which thus continued the cycle of dependency on Uncle Sam.

Two different stories. two different POVs. The end result is not a hand out that helps, but a hand up and the building of the person not to depend on big government, but to depend upon God and the skills and abilities given to them to do good work, make an honest living, and become productive and helpful to the society at large.

Thus to my point. Would having churches give up their 501(c)3 status help? Nope. Even though my own ministry is not under this exemption, I do not believe that eliminating the code would change anything. It would just enable big government to have more to waste.

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by UnTraditional

That is placing the power of welfare back into the hands of big government. Welfare does not work. Why? because it causes a dependency mentality, and in later generations, an entitlement mentality, as we see going on in America right now.

Hey, pal, I grew up on welfare. I joined the military, took classes, and made a life for myself. There are millions like me out there. The only thing I miss about it was the government cheese we'd get back in the day. It made the best grilled cheese sandwiches.

Which is better? A nation that gives people money and makes them mental and spiritual slaves to the whims of government, removing personal responsibility and initiative, or helping people through quality education, getting them off of welfare and into the workforce, thus enabling them to pay taxes, and continue the circle of a hand up and not a hand out? enabling an individual to work is much more productive to society than giving free hand outs.

Where I live, one can only be on welfare for 60 consecutive months. They also must meet employment requirements (WEP) or be taking classes. I think that's reasonable. The only individuals that receive benefits without work requirements or needing to be in school are those with disabilities.

I am a good example. At one time, i was a diabetic, over 600 lbs., with an enlarged heart and was destined to die early. I was able then and there to get support from the government, but I chose not to. I have since lost over 300 lbs., am no longer on diabetic medication or blood pressure meds, and just celebrated my 22nd year of work as a custodian. Sure, my pay is not much, not what I feel I deserve for the work I do, but it is steady, and soon, I'll have a good portion of my bills paid off.

I can respect that. I've only pulled unemployment, and that was years ago. It helped me from losing all I had worked for after a layoff.

My cousins on the other hand were and are hypochondriacs. They stayed on Social Security, welfare, all sorts of support. The government's handout enabled them to stay on drugs, which thus continued the cycle of dependency on Uncle Sam.

You blame the government for their being on drugs?

Two different stories. two different POVs. The end result is not a hand out that helps, but a hand up and the building of the person not to depend on big government, but to depend upon God and the skills and abilities given to them to do good work, make an honest living, and become productive and helpful to the society at large.

Again, I don't know what the laws are in your state, but here one can only be on welfare for 60 consecutive months. And there are work requirements (WEP), unless one is enrolled in school. I certainly don't believe in a free hand out.

Thus to my point. Would having churches give up their 501(c)3 status help? Nope. Even though my own ministry is not under this exemption, I do not believe that eliminating the code would change anything. It would just enable big government to have more to waste.

Yes, it would help. It would relieve some of the tax burden on us all. And with churches becoming increasingly political, why should I have to pay taxes and they not pay taxes??? They aren't even shouldering any of the financial burden to run this country.

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by Aquila

Yes, it would help. It would relieve some of the tax burden on us all. And with churches becoming increasingly political, why should I have to pay taxes and they not pay taxes??? They aren't even shouldering any of the financial burden to run this country.

You, like all liberal progs, are totally ignorant of history, government, and religion. Doesn't matter though because your birth rates mean your people will be extinct in a couple more generations.

[jediwill83]

Taxation is theft. Who is to say that the excess taxes collected would go to social programs?

There is no virtue in involuntary wealth redistribution by gunpoint or threat of inprisonment.

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by jediwill83

Taxation is theft.

Who told you that taxation is theft? Would God or Jesus advocate theft?

Romans 13:1-7 English Standard Version (ESV)
1 Let every person be subject to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and those that exist have been instituted by God. 2 Therefore whoever resists the authorities resists what God has appointed, and those who resist will incur judgment. 3 For rulers are not a terror to good conduct, but to bad. Would you have no fear of the one who is in authority? Then do what is good, and you will receive his approval, 4 for he is God's servant for your good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for he does not bear the sword in vain. For he is the servant of God, an avenger who carries out God's wrath on the wrongdoer. 5 Therefore one must be in subjection, not only to avoid God's wrath but also for the sake of conscience. 6 For because of this you also pay taxes, for the authorities are ministers of God, attending to this very thing. 7 Pay to all what is owed to them: taxes to whom taxes are owed, revenue to whom revenue is owed, respect to whom respect is owed, honor to whom honor is owed.

Matthew 22:21 (ESV)
They said, “Caesar's.” Then he said to them, “Therefore render to Caesar the things that are Caesar's, and to God the things that are God's.”

Who is to say that the excess taxes collected would go to social programs?

It can be set apart just as a percentage of taxation belonging to fuel is set apart for roads and highways.

There is no virtue in involuntary wealth redistribution by gunpoint or threat of inprisonment.

The Year of Jubilee would have been miserable for you. lol

[Evang.Benincasa]

Originally Posted by Aquila

Who told you that taxation is theft? Would God or Jesus advocate theft?

Romans 13:1-7 English Standard Version (ESV)
1 Let every person be subject to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and those that exist have been instituted by God. 2 Therefore whoever resists the authorities resists what God has appointed, and those who resist will incur judgment. 3 For rulers are not a terror to good conduct, but to bad. Would you have no fear of the one who is in authority? Then do what is good, and you will receive his approval, 4 for he is God's servant for your good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for he does not bear the sword in vain. For he is the servant of God, an avenger who carries out God's wrath on the wrongdoer. 5 Therefore one must be in subjection, not only to avoid God's wrath but also for the sake of conscience. 6 For because of this you also pay taxes, for the authorities are ministers of God, attending to this very thing. 7 Pay to all what is owed to them: taxes to whom taxes are owed, revenue to whom revenue is owed, respect to whom respect is owed, honor to whom honor is owed.

Matthew 22:21 (ESV)
They said, “Caesar's.” Then he said to them, “Therefore render to Caesar the things that are Caesar's, and to God the things that are God's.”

It can be set apart just as a percentage of taxation belonging to fuel is set apart for roads and highways.



The Year of Jubilee would have been miserable for you. lol

What did Jesus do when He and Peter had to pay tribute at the Judean Temple?

Oh, and please don't "skirt" the issue.

[votivesoul]

There is a meta-narrative here, and then there is the street level narrative as well.

The larger picture is the argument about whether a church ought to seek 501c3 status from the IRS at all, or if it's wrong to do so.

The street level narrative is that, if the 501c3 IRS coding that applies to churches was axed, there would be church after church after church going into bankruptcy and insolvency, to such a degree that churches the nation over would disband, and all the hoped for tax revenue would dry up in a heartbeat.

While I personally advocate against a church becoming a 501c3 organization, I also recognize the reality of what it would mean to lose such a status. It would be a crippling blow to a vast majority of churches and ministries.

Hence, this is why groups like The Freedom from Religion Foundation and ACLU are pushing hard to get the IRS code changed. They are hoping to sucker punch American Christianity in the gut, no matter the cost or damage, not just financially, but also personally, emotionally, and psychologically, for the sake of their twisted agenda.

Of course, anyone who is truly covenanted to the Lord would survive and rebuild and get back on their feet and continue serving Christ Jesus, simply because God is in control, no matter what ends up happening. Either way, though, it would still get ugly.

[Esaias]

Actually, revoking 501(c)3 status would, as you say, deal a death blow to the incorporated churches.

Would this be a terrible thing, though? No money to be made so no Joel Osteens and Kenny Copelands?

Hmmm... might wake some people up...

[Aquila]

A world without Joel Osteens and Kenny Copelands would be nice.