Answering The Charge Of "Chaos"

[votivesoul]

https://votivesoul.wordpress.com/201...arge-of-chaos/

[Michael The Disciple]

Hi Brother,

Im fully with you on body ministry. I actually knew a network of Churches decades ago where they really did body ministry. I went to a convention of theirs in St. Paul back in 1985. It certainly was different.

They met in a Church building probably about 200 people. There was a mic on the platform. One by one people came up and shared what they believed the Lord was leading them. It was probably no more than a 3 hour meeting. Of course it was a 3 meeting Convention as I recall.

It did not turn into "chaos". It was generally speaking well ordered. Now these were people from various local Churches around the Midwest who were doing body ministry in their home Churches so they understood how this worked.

The only thing I would add....and I think you will agree with this, there is a real need for mature Eldership. Elders are "Overseers". While the body ministry was taking place at the meeting I referred to there were a number of Elders there watching, observing, and praying.

If things would have began to go south, they would have stepped in with correction. I believe these two things must be in place. The body ministry and the Eldership in real New Testament Churches.

The Elders should not and in that particular movement DID NOT assume that THEY would be the ones who would have "the message". They may have spent their whole time in a given meeting just praying the Lords will be done, while various members of the body of Christ spoke.

[Esaias]

What people today call "body ministry" is what people used to call "pentecostal meetings".

Many of us still do it that way.

[votivesoul]

Originally Posted by Michael The Disciple

Hi Brother,

Im fully with you on body ministry. I actually knew a network of Churches decades ago where they really did body ministry. I went to a convention of theirs in St. Paul back in 1985. It certainly was different.

They met in a Church building probably about 200 people. There was a mic on the platform. One by one people came up and shared what they believed the Lord was leading them. It was probably no more than a 3 hour meeting. Of course it was a 3 meeting Convention as I recall.

It did not turn into "chaos". It was generally speaking well ordered. Now these were people from various local Churches around the Midwest who were doing body ministry in their home Churches so they understood how this worked.

The only thing I would add....and I think you will agree with this, there is a real need for mature Eldership. Elders are "Overseers". While the body ministry was taking place at the meeting I referred to there were a number of Elders there watching, observing, and praying.

If things would have began to go south, they would have stepped in with correction. I believe these two things must be in place. The body ministry and the Eldership in real New Testament Churches.

The Elders should not and in that particular movement DID NOT assume that THEY would be the ones who would have "the message". They may have spent their whole time in a given meeting just praying the Lords will be done, while various members of the body of Christ spoke.

You are absolutely right about the need for eldership and correction. Many think the ministry is put into place to keep a control on things so nothing out of order happens. I think the ministry is there to allow the saints to grow through experience and if and ONLY IF, things become disordered, to help steer the saints back to the Word and what the Holy Scriptures require of us when we meet. And of course, ALWAYS IN LOVE. Abruptly shutting someone down and embarrassing them does nothing to edify the assembly.

So many are unlearned, even afraid of the gifts of the Spirit. They think only special people get to be used by God, and so, they quench the Spirit, unless a mature elder, sensitive to the Holy Spirit, knows how to bring encouragement and guidance.

This past year I was in a meeting in which various men present all prophesied, one by one, about receiving the Holy Spirit and really embracing the Lord as King and Christ. There was an unbeliever present, and I realized God was orchestrating the meeting to fulfill His purpose in helping this man realize God was in us of a truth.

It was an amazing time of mutual sharing, prophetic testimony, and faith building exhortation.

This is what we need more of. We don't need lectures and pontifications that amount to nothing more than dry commentary. We need to see the Holy Spirit in FULL BODY action. I happily hold my peace as I see things being revealed onto others, so that they may be used.

God has gracefully granted me the ability to hear His voice speaking through the BODY, not just one person, but everyone. I can't see going back to the "traditional" methods of "doing church".

May God bless you and Esaias and KeptByTheWord and everyone else here and abroad who has discovered this depth, this liberty, and this power in the Body through the Spirit!

[Esaias]

What's weird is the 'traditional methods' aren't very traditional, from a Pentecostal point of view. Bartleman detailed how it worked in early days of revival.

[KeptByTheWord]

Originally Posted by votivesoul

You are absolutely right about the need for eldership and correction. Many think the ministry is put into place to keep a control on things so nothing out of order happens. I think the ministry is there to allow the saints to grow through experience and if and ONLY IF, things become disordered, to help steer the saints back to the Word and what the Holy Scriptures require of us when we meet. And of course, ALWAYS IN LOVE. Abruptly shutting someone down and embarrassing them does nothing to edify the assembly.

So many are unlearned, even afraid of the gifts of the Spirit. They think only special people get to be used by God, and so, they quench the Spirit, unless a mature elder, sensitive to the Holy Spirit, knows how to bring encouragement and guidance.

This past year I was in a meeting in which various men present all prophesied, one by one, about receiving the Holy Spirit and really embracing the Lord as King and Christ. There was an unbeliever present, and I realized God was orchestrating the meeting to fulfill His purpose in helping this man realize God was in us of a truth.

It was an amazing time of mutual sharing, prophetic testimony, and faith building exhortation.

This is what we need more of. We don't need lectures and pontifications that amount to nothing more than dry commentary. We need to see the Holy Spirit in FULL BODY action. I happily hold my peace as I see things being revealed onto others, so that they may be used.

God has gracefully granted me the ability to hear His voice speaking through the BODY, not just one person, but everyone. I can't see going back to the "traditional" methods of "doing church".

May God bless you and Esaias and KeptByTheWord and everyone else here and abroad who has discovered this depth, this liberty, and this power in the Body through the Spirit!

What a tremendous blessing it is to be a part of a group of people who understand that the gifts of the ministry, and of the spirit, are not tied up in just one person leading the congregation. And how much we have learned and grown in the Lord, because the spirit of the Lord is able to work freely among us, and not be hindered.

I pray this is encouraging for anyone who is hungering for more than what they are receiving in the typical church environment, to seek the Lord and see what doors can be opened up into experiencing NT body ministry and community.

Thank you Bro. Aaron for sharing your experiences, and I pray the Lord continues to bless mightily through your willing vessel. May we all be willing to be poured out for Him in a greater measure than ever before.

[votivesoul]

Someone I know (I am being vague on purpose) is a licensed minister with a certain Oneness organization. They carry the title pastor in their church. But just recently they have seen the way the traditions of men have strangled body ministry nearly to death, and are in the process of making a very drastic decision: to leave their organization, leave their local assembly, leave their title and position behind, and truly find out what God has in store when we do things HIS WAY.

I believe this person has seen the fruit of what I am involved in, and sees the benefit and is beginning to realize how awesome things could be if we'd just get over the popish polity so Christ can be Head over His own Body.

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by votivesoul

Someone I know (I am being vague on purpose) is a licensed minister with a certain Oneness organization. They carry the title pastor in their church. But just recently they have seen the way the traditions of men have strangled body ministry nearly to death, and are in the process of making a very drastic decision: to leave their organization, leave their local assembly, leave their title and position behind, and truly find out what God has in store when we do things HIS WAY.

I believe this person has seen the fruit of what I am involved in, and sees the benefit and is beginning to realize how awesome things could be if we'd just get over the popish polity so Christ can be Head over His own Body.

Why wouldn't he just teach it from the pulpit, and equip the saints to a level of maturity so they could begin operating in the Holy Ghost as they should be doing? Why 'leave their assembly'?

I would say he needs to stay and teach the full counsel of God until forced out by the local assembly themselves, if they don't want the manifestation of the Spirit but instead just want to be entertained twice a week.

I really have a hard time understanding how 'pentecostals' would NOT believe in and practice 'body ministry' ie 'the manifestation of the Spirit is given to EVERY man to profit withal'...?

[votivesoul]

Originally Posted by Esaias

Why wouldn't he just teach it from the pulpit, and equip the saints to a level of maturity so they could begin operating in the Holy Ghost as they should be doing? Why 'leave their assembly'?

I would say he needs to stay and teach the full counsel of God until forced out by the local assembly themselves, if they don't want the manifestation of the Spirit but instead just want to be entertained twice a week.

I really have a hard time understanding how 'pentecostals' would NOT believe in and practice 'body ministry' ie 'the manifestation of the Spirit is given to EVERY man to profit withal'...?

He's not the Senior Pastor, and the squeeze is already on him. He's been shut down at every turn. Promises made to him regarding his ministry, with no explanation why, have been broken. A work God had used him to begin has been scuttled for no apparent reason other than organizational politics.

Should he stay and try to see change from within, or go into the wilderness? That's the Word he needs from the Lord, so I pray for him without trying to influence anything.

As for why would anyone in Pentecost not believe in and practice "body ministry"...?

Well, how long have you been meeting in homes versus being a part of the so-called institutional church? Maybe more has changed than you realize?

There is such a level of control and censure from the few that the many can't barely do squat (not everywhere of course, but in enough places, from the way people I know share with me).

Full Body ministry takes the power out of the hands of one or two, and puts it back into the hands of the Lord and His Holy Spirit. The leadership model pasted onto the church from the world breaks down, and people lose their kingdoms.

It's sad and unholy, but nonetheless true (in many, but not in all places. I don't mean for this to be some broad brush accusation--but where the shoe fits...).

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by votivesoul

He's not the Senior Pastor, and the squeeze is already on him. He's been shut down at every turn. Promises made to him regarding his ministry, with no explanation why, have been broken. A work God had used him to begin has been scuttled for no apparent reason other than organizational politics.

Should he stay and try to see change from within, or go into the wilderness? That's the Word he needs from the Lord, so I pray for him without trying to influence anything.

Ah, I see.

As for why would anyone in Pentecost not believe in and practice "body ministry"...?

Well, how long have you been meeting in homes versus being a part of the so-called institutional church? Maybe more has changed than you realize?

There is such a level of control and censure from the few that the many can't barely do squat (not everywhere of course, but in enough places, from the way people I know share with me).

Full Body ministry takes the power out of the hands of one or two, and puts it back into the hands of the Lord and His Holy Spirit. The leadership model pasted onto the church from the world breaks down, and people lose their kingdoms.

It's sad and unholy, but nonetheless true (in many, but not in all places. I don't mean for this to be some broad brush accusation--but where the shoe fits...).

'How long have you been meeting in homes versus being a part of the so-called institutional church?'

lol Well, we've been meeting like this for about 14 years, I guess? Plus, even before that, when we attended the local UPC, we also had prayer meetings and family worship at home.

Maybe I am out of the loop on what's been going on. I can remember (at a UPC home missions church) when you never knew WHERE or FROM WHOM the Word would come forth. Same with the songs, by the way. And yes, the Word most assuredly DID come forth, with a power and presence I haven't seen since in any 'institutional' church setting. That was about 20 some odd years ago.

I find it strange, though. Sowderite ('Gospel Assembly') churches are usually considered somewhat cultic with major control issues, yet their meetings are completely unscripted and the floor (and the pulpit) is open to whoever. In fact, you never know what's going to happen until it happens, they gather and just sit in quiet prayer asking God to speak and lead the meeting, and sooner or later somebody stands up and off you go.

Maybe modern 'Pentecost' has moved on and we and the people we know got left behind.

I haven't been to a UPC or independent apostolic (but 'institutional') church in years. (cue the Twilight Zone music)