2014 BOTT Quote in Context

[n david]

I mentioned months ago I was going to do this, so here it is.

I finally got the DVD of a message at BOTT and was able to watch the message. In this message, there was a quote argued over several months ago from this year's BOTT. One minister publicly called another an idiot for something he said in this message.

The theme of BOTT was "Revive," and one minister was given a topic to speak on the minister's personal revival. His title was: "The First Trip Behind the Veil." The text was taken from Lev 16:6, 11, 17:

And Aaron shall offer his bullock of the sin offering, which is for himself, and make an atonement for himself, and for his house.

And Aaron shall bring the bullock of the sin offering, which is for himself, and shall make an atonement for himself, and for his house, and shall kill the bullock of the sin offering which is for himself:

And there shall be no man in the tabernacle of the congregation when he goeth in to make an atonement in the holy place, until he come out, and have made an atonement for himself, and for his household, and for all the congregation of Israel.

The theme of the message was that Pastors and leaders must revive themselves before they can see revival in their homes, churches and communities.

Some quotes:

There are reasons for things. If your church is dead, there's a reason. If your people don't pray, there's a reason. If your church isn't making disciples, there's a reason. If you don't have it, they won't have it. If you won't do it, they won't do it. If you don't show it, they won't show it. If they don't see it, they won't seize it.

We cannot lead anyone until we lead ourselves.
We cannot lead anyone into the holy of holies until we've gone ourselves.

You cannot impart what you do not possess.
You cannot give what you do not have.
You cannot attract what you want, only what you are.

40 minutes into the message comes the quote which caused the other minister to call him an idiot:

If you've been at a church, and if I've been at a church that I've served more than 3 years, it's an indictment on me and not on the saints when I complain about how carnal they are. How dead they are. How prayerless they are. How lukewarm they are. Because if I don't have a revival, the (name of a church) church isn't going to have revival.

IMO, when taken in context with the whole message, it's a valid statement. I've seen it time and again, where you have a Pastor who has no vision or direction -- the church is not growing. And where you have a Pastor who is evangelistic and has vision -- the church is growing and engaged.

Now, is it the Pastor's fault that a few saints may be carnal, backslidden jerks? No, not at all. Here's the thing, that's not what was said. He was speaking of the church as a whole. If after 3 years the Pastor is complaining about how dead his church is...how prayerless the church is...how carnal the church is...people follow the leader.

Instead of understanding the quote in context and as a whole, this other minister got offended and complained about not being guilty because people "take their clothes off," "go do drugs and porno stuff." "I will not be blamed for that!"

Now, two things strike me in the statements seen in the short clip where he blasts the other minister and tells him, "You're an idiot."

1) If by "people" he means his whole church are "taking their clothes off, doing drugs and porno stuff," then good Lord, yes there's a problem him as the Pastor and leader of that church! Even if half of the people attending that church regularly are still going out and doing those things...it warrants some reflection and prayer as to why they're not being influenced and changed by the spirit of God or the messages being preached.

2) If by "people" he means a one, two or a few, then he completely missed the context and point of what the other minister said, twisted it to suggest something else and used a straw man.

After listening to the message by this minister, and hearing the context of his full quote, I agree with him and stand by my initial criticism of the other minister who called him an idiot.

[bishoph]

I appreciate your assessment, however, JA already acknowledged his inappropriate comment and has publicly/privately apologized....I think it is a mute point at this juncture.....jmo

[Reader]

Nice post, n David. It is always best to see something in context.

Now, is it the Pastor's fault that a few saints may be carnal, backslidden jerks? No, not at all. Here's the thing, that's not what was said. He was speaking of the church as a whole. If after 3 years the Pastor is complaining about how dead his church is...how prayerless the church is...how carnal the church is...people follow the leader.

I can follow that. If the pastor is berating the people for being so carnal, perhaps he needs to look at what he is doing. Is he filling them with feel good messages with no meat? Does his life line up with what he teaches? Is he teaching what the scriptures say about how we are to live?

Yet I also have to share I have a difficulty if people are all like puppets following a pastor. If my pastor doesn't teach things he aught, it doesn't stop me from opening my Bible and learning. If my pastor says one thing and does another, it doesn't mean I should do likewise. Can we blame a pastor for how we choose to live?

Having said that, I can see where the speaker was coming from. Perhaps he was tried of hearing about how some pastors do complain about the people in their churches and yet do little or nothing to counter it.

[Reader]

Originally Posted by bishoph

I appreciate your assessment, however, JA already acknowledged his inappropriate comment and has publicly/privately apologized....I think it is a mute point at this juncture.....jmo

I was not involved in the original discussion but cannot agree it is a mute point. The message is a good topic to discuss.

[n david]

If there is a possible criticism, it may be from those who don't believe in a Pastor-led church...versus a plural of Elders. The message was very top-heavy, ie, the Pastor is responsible for the church and what a Pastor does affects the whole church.

Again, I do believe leadership is reflected in the congregation, and have seen good and bad leaders who have had good and bad effects on the church they minister.

[Reader]

Again, I do believe leadership is reflected in the congregation

I believe it can be. Then there are times where it is not (think Paul and all the problems with carnality in the church at Corinth).

This does bring up a good topic. Why does this happen and should it happen?

[n david]

Originally Posted by bishoph

I appreciate your assessment, however, JA already acknowledged his inappropriate comment and has publicly/privately apologized....I think it is a mute point at this juncture.....jmo

Understood. Again, I made the statement that once I was able to listen to the full message I would post on it. Unfortunately months passed before I finally received DVD (not sure why it took so long), and since then I have heard what you posted, that the minister acknowledged his error and apologized.

I won't comment on the minister's insult again, or put him through the wringer over it anymore. I do believe the quote and full message itself is worthy of discussion.

[n david]

Originally Posted by Reader

I believe it can be. Then there are times where it is not (think Paul and all the problems with carnality in the church at Corinth).

This highlights the difference, IMO, between the early church and our modern church structure. Was Paul the leader or Pastor of the church in Corinth?

Originally Posted by Reader

Why does this happen and should it happen?

Ministry has its ebbs and flows, ups and downs, mountain tops and valleys. Because of that, it will happen; however, when it does happen, Pastors, leaders, etc should be able to lead through it.

[Reader]

This highlights the difference, IMO, between the early church and our modern church structure. Was Paul the leader or Pastor of the church in Corinth?

Good question. He was the founder and yet he was not normally there. They did write him asking questions about various issues. Yet that could be seen in like manner as when other believers sent a question to the Apostles in Jerusalem.

Ministry has its ebbs and flows, ups and downs, mountain tops and valleys. Because of that, it will happen; however, when it does happen, Pastors, leaders, etc should be able to lead through it.

I fully agree they should be able to lead through it and yet there are times they are unable, not due to lack of trying.

Why does it happen? Why do people place such significance on one person? Take Jim Jones as an example, even though it is an extreme. As he went downhill, so did those in the congregation. Why did many not read the Bible for themselves? Some had to have had feelings something was wrong. Why were those overridden?

[triumphant1]

Originally Posted by n david

Understood. Again, I made the statement that once I was able to listen to the full message I would post on it. Unfortunately months passed before I finally received DVD (not sure why it took so long), and since then I have heard what you posted, that the minister acknowledged his error and apologized.

I won't comment on the minister's insult again, or put him through the wringer over it anymore. I do believe the quote and full message itself is worthy of discussion.

In the former thread we discussed John maxwell quotes and I participated. Therefore I am wondering, did you hear SG quote John Maxwell as JA alluded to? I listened to it online and I didn't hear a John Maxwell quote. He quotes Barna, but not in any context concerning the "idiot" quote.

My perspective has definitely changed due to hearing the SG sermon. It would appear that unfortunately he (and NOT John Maxwell) was in fact called an idiot for what he preached. Which seems crazy to me!

If JA apologized, as has been reported, that's good. A lesson is learned here for me, when passion for a subject is ignited, please be careful what you say in the pulpit!