Libertarian Jesus

Originalist · #1 10-29-2013, 03:07 PM

Disciple4life · #2 10-29-2013, 03:51 PM

RandyWayne · #3 10-29-2013, 05:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Originalist

There are many who have been here who wouldn't BREAK into your home in the middle of the night to steal things they think they are owed by virtue of wealth disparity (probably in rightful fear of an armed household), but have NO problem voting for those who will do it for them.

Aquila · #4 10-30-2013, 06:46 AM

While Jesus never had to make a law to feed the poor... the Law under which Jesus lived was instituted by God. It required every third years tithe (an agrarian income tax) be given to the priests, the poor, the widows, the orphans, and the strangers. Also, land owners were prohibited from gleaning the edges and the corners of their fields. These were to be left for the needy of the nation to freely glean. Even Jesus and his disciples gleaned from another man's field in the Gospels...

Matthew 12:1 (ESV)
At that time Jesus went through the grainfields on the Sabbath. His disciples were hungry, and they began to pluck heads of grain and to eat.

The point is... Jesus didn't have to tell them to make laws to provide for the basic needs of the poor in the land. This is because they already had laws from God commanding such for thousands of years. If such an idea (that government plays a role in relieving the poor and needy classes) as theft... Jesus sinned by gleaning from this grain field. And if Jesus sinned by doing so... he wasn't a singles sacrifice. And if Jesus wasn't a sinless sacrifice... there could be no atonement. And if there can be no atonement... there can be no salvation.

So... it can't be called "theft".

Now... if someone who isn't poor or needy chooses to exploit a system for benefits they don't need... that is theft.

Aquila · #5 10-30-2013, 07:03 AM

With regards to the nation of Israel God commanded the people, as a nation to care for the poor and needy in the land. Here are some laws governing this responsibility:

1.A care for the poor is a characteristic of the righteous. Psa. 112:9; Prov. 29:7; 2 Cor. 9:9; Gal. 2:10.
2.We should defend the poor and deliver them from the hand of the wicked. Psa. 82:3-4.
3.If one of your brethren becomes poor and falls into poverty among you, you are to sustain him, whether he be a foreigner or a countryman. Lev. 25:35.
4.Do not harden your heart towards the poor but lend to him sufficient to cover his need. Deut. 15:7-10.
5.You are not to mock the poor. Prov. 17:5.
6.You shall not oppress the poor. Deut 24:14; Job 24:3-4, 10; Psa. 10:2; Isa. 10:1-2; Zech. 7:10.
7.He who oppresses the poor reproaches his Maker, but he who honors his Maker has mercy towards the needy. Prov. 14:21, 31.
8.Neglect towards to poor and hungry is a neglect of Christ. Matt. 25:34-46.
9.The poor you will always have with you. Matt. 26:11; Mark 14:7.
10.He who neglects the needy does not have the love of God in him. 1 John 3:17.
11.Curses and punishments are due to those who neglect the poor or withhold from him his needs. Job 31:16-22; Prov. 21:13; Matt. 25:34-46.
12.God will bless and deliver him that gives consideration to the poor. Psa. 41:1; Isa. 58:10.
13.He that is gracious to a poor man lends to God, and He will repay him for his good deed. Prov. 19:17.
14.We should give of that which we have extra to the poor. Luke 3:11.
15.The poor will never cease out of the land, therefore open your hand wide to your poor brethren. Deut. 15:11.

How the nation was to provide for the poor:

1.A small portion of crops are to remain unharvested or unpicked so that they may be left for the poor and fatherless to take. Lev. 19:9-10; Lev. 23:22; Deut. 24:19-21.
2.At the end of three years all of the tithes of the people's increase for the year are to be gathered together and given to and eaten by the stranger, the fatherless and the widow. Deut. 14:28-29; Deut 26:12.
3.That of which you have extra is to be shared with the needy. Luke 3:11.
4.The hungry, when they come to a neighbor's vineyard, may eat their fill of grapes, but shall not put any in their basket. Deut 23:24.
5.Give to every man that asks and needs, for whatever measure you deal out to others, it will be dealt to you in return. Luke 6:30, 38.
6.The needy may enter their neighbor's grain fields and corn fields and pluck the crop by hand, but shall not cut down the crop with a sickle. Deut. 23:25.
7.Individual offerings, donations, and contributions are to be given according to the purpose that one's heart leads, giving to the poor willingly. Lev. 25:35; Deut. 15:7-8; 2 Cor. 9:7.

Baron1710 · #6 10-30-2013, 12:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aquila

While Jesus never had to make a law to feed the poor... the Law under which Jesus lived was instituted by God. It required every third years tithe (an agrarian income tax) be given to the priests, the poor, the widows, the orphans, and the strangers. Also, land owners were prohibited from gleaning the edges and the corners of their fields. These were to be left for the needy of the nation to freely glean. Even Jesus and his disciples gleaned from another man's field in the Gospels...

Matthew 12:1 (ESV)
At that time Jesus went through the grainfields on the Sabbath. His disciples were hungry, and they began to pluck heads of grain and to eat.

The point is... Jesus didn't have to tell them to make laws to provide for the basic needs of the poor in the land. This is because they already had laws from God commanding such for thousands of years. If such an idea (that government plays a role in relieving the poor and needy classes) as theft... Jesus sinned by gleaning from this grain field. And if Jesus sinned by doing so... he wasn't a singles sacrifice. And if Jesus wasn't a sinless sacrifice... there could be no atonement. And if there can be no atonement... there can be no salvation.

So... it can't be called "theft".

Now... if someone who isn't poor or needy chooses to exploit a system for benefits they don't need... that is theft.

Wrong.

Jesus lived under Roman rule not the theocracy of the OT.

Aquila · #7 10-30-2013, 01:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Baron1710

Wrong.

Jesus lived under Roman rule not the theocracy of the OT.

True. But we shouldn't forget that Roman rule largely allowed Palestine to govern society by OT laws. However, there were limitations. For example, while the Pharisaical courts had certain powers they couldn't execute someone without the Roman governor's approval. The social laws of the region were still primarily governed by the Law of Moses. Especially laws regarding agriculture. Else... Jesus was stealing from the field he and the disciples gleaned from.