wealth redistribution

[odooley6985]

Why does everyone scream this when the topic of the rich paying more taxes is brought up? Yet when politicians give the rich tax breaks that cost the middle class no one screams this. Why are conservatives always sticking up for the rich even at the expense of them paying more taxes?

[Sam]

Originally Posted by odooley6985

Why does everyone scream this when the topic of the rich paying more taxes is brought up? Yet when politicians give the rich tax breaks that cost the middle class no one screams this. Why are conservatives always sticking up for the rich even at the expense of them paying more taxes?

Why does any one person in this country make any more than anyone else?
Why aren't all salaries to all people in this country funnelled through the federal government so they can "steal" their portion to feed the bloated bureaucracy and then re-distributed to every person in America whether they work or not? This way everyone from the highest executive to the lowest laborer and all those who could not or would not work would receive equal pay. This would eliminate the 1 percent who are very wealthy and who pay the major share of taxes and would eliminate the 47 percent who pay no federal taxes.

[odooley6985]

Originally Posted by Sam

Why does any one person in this country make any more than anyone else?
Why aren't all salaries to all people in this country funnelled through the federal government so they can "steal" their portion to feed the bloated bureaucracy and then re-distributed to every person in America whether they work or not? This way everyone from the highest executive to the lowest laborer and all those who could not or would not work would receive equal pay. This would eliminate the 1 percent who are very wealthy and who pay the major share of taxes and would eliminate the 47 percent who pay no federal taxes.

They are its called taxes. Seriously though. You have no problem working hard and paying more taxes so someone who makes more money than you, gets a huge tax cut? I am not talking about the 47% who pay no taxes. I am talking middle class vs upper class. Supposedly we are in a progressive tax system. I dont want there money. I really dont. I also dont think they should get mine. Especially all in the name of job creation. I have worked since I was 16. I am 27. For my whole working life I have maybe been unemployed one year. I work for everything. I just think Fox News and other so called conservative media have conditioned people to think that someone that is rich is better than someone who is poor. It blows my mind that middle class people vote and support the GOP

[RandyWayne]

Originally Posted by odooley6985

They are its called taxes. Seriously though. You have no problem working hard and paying more taxes so someone who makes more money than you, gets a huge tax cut? I am not talking about the 47% who pay no taxes. I am talking middle class vs upper class. Supposedly we are in a progressive tax system. I dont want there money. I really dont. I also dont think they should get mine. Especially all in the name of job creation. I have worked since I was 16. I am 27. For my whole working life I have maybe been unemployed one year. I work for everything. I just think Fox News and other so called conservative media have conditioned people to think that someone that is rich is better than someone who is poor. It blows my mind that middle class people vote and support the GOP

I have seen this posted several places, including here (I think Sam might have even done it), but it is apparently a lesson in economics that needs to be taught many many times.

Bar Stool Economics


Suppose that every day, ten men go out for beer and the bill for all ten comes to $100. If they paid their bill the way we pay our taxes, it would go something like this:


...The first four men (the poorest) would pay nothing.
The fifth would pay $1.
The sixth would pay $3.
The seventh would pay $7.
The eighth would pay $12.
The ninth would pay $18.
The tenth man (the richest) would pay $59.


So, that's what they decided to do.
The ten men drank in the bar every day and seemed quite happy with the arrangement, until one day, the owner threw them a curve. "Since you are all such good customers," he said, "I'm going to reduce the cost of your daily beer by $20." Drinks for the ten now cost just $80.
The group still wanted to pay their bill the way we pay our taxes so the first four men were unaffected. They would still drink for free. But what about the other six men - the paying customers? How could they divide the $20 windfall so that everyone would get his 'fair share?'
They realized that $20 divided by six is $3.33. But if they subtracted that from everybody's share, then the fifth man and the sixth man would each end up being paid to drink his beer. So, the bar owner suggested that it would be fair to reduce each man's bill by roughly the same amount, and he proceeded to work out the amounts each should pay.


And so:
The fifth man, like the first four, now paid nothing (100% savings).
The sixth now paid $2 instead of $3 (33%savings).
The seventh now paid $5 instead of $7 (28%savings).
The eighth now paid $9 instead of $12 (25% savings).
The ninth now paid $14 instead of $18 (22% savings).
The tenth now paid $49 instead of $59 (16% savings).


Each of the six was better off than before. And the first four continued to drink for free. But once outside the restaurant,
the men began to compare their savings.

"I only got a dollar out of the $20," declared the sixth man. He pointed to the tenth man, "but he got $10!"

"Yeah, that's right," exclaimed the fifth man. "I only saved a dollar, too. It's unfair that he got ten times more than I got"

"That's true!!" shouted the seventh man.

"Why should he get $10 back when I got only two? The wealthy get all the breaks!"

"Wait a minute," yelled the first four men in unison. "We didn't get anything at all. The system exploits the poor!"


The nine men surrounded the tenth and beat him up.


The next night the tenth man didn't show up for drinks so the nine sat down and had beers without him. But when it came time to pay the bill, they discovered something important. They didn't have enough money between all of them for even half of the bill!


And that, ladies and gentlemen, journalists and college professors, is how our tax system works. The people who pay the highest taxes get the most benefit from a tax reduction. Tax them too much, attack them for being wealthy, and they just may not show up anymore.


In fact, they might start drinking overseas where the atmosphere is somewhat friendlier.


David R. Kamerschen, Ph.D.
Professor of Economics
University of Georgia


For those who understand, no explanation is needed.
For those who do not understand, no explanation is possible.

[odooley6985]

Originally Posted by RandyWayne

I have seen this posted several places, including here (I think Sam might have even done it), but it is apparently a lesson in economics that needs to be taught many many times.

Your little analogy is cute but lacks facts. So my guess is you are a supply side economic guy? So you are telling me the economy grows when the rich pay less? Them paying less allows them to hire more. Is that your line of thinking? Do you have facts to support that? I bet you dont. If supply side econ worked unemployment would be low right now. It isnt. Deman side is what drives a good economy. Give people extra money and they will spend it. So if you own a business and people are lining up around the block to buy your product, you are going to close shop cause your tax rate is to high? Not to mention all of the deductions you can deduct for owning a business. Look them up. You can get a deduction for wages you pay to an employee. I would be more mad at the GOPs idea of wanting to do away with some deductions (they still havent said which ones they want to do away with). The world will not end if the Clinton era tax rates are put into place. Some presidents had 90% rate on the highest earners and the economy didnt go to the pits.

[scotty]

Actually its pretty simple.

First off, the middle class do not pay more taxes than the rich, IN MONEY. Only in percentage. Millionares pay hundreds of thousands of dollars in taxes.

Secondly, the rich, ie; executives, are mostly business owners and investors. If it were not for thier business investments, the middle class would have no job.

Lets try economics 101. Give the rich tax breaks , especially business owners. The rich reinvest their money into their business or other business. The business expands. The expansion requires construction, purchases, further investment. That creates jobs. The middle class now have jobs and thus they prosper. They spend their prosperity putting money back into the economy. To make up for the middle class purchasing goods and services, business then have to expand and the cycle repeats itself.

On the side you now have more people in the workforce which creates more tax revenue. You have more consumer spending which creates more tax revenue.

Its just that simple.

On the other hand, if you raise taxes on the rich;ie business owners and investors. They cut back, stop expanding, stop investing. Jobs are lost. Which means no tax revenues. So the government has to raise the tax rate to compensate. This is what is happening now.

So instead of raising taxes, if they would keep them low and allow businesses and the economy to work on its own, we would be ok.

Look at places where they have jacked up the tax rate on the rich and big business. The rich and big business are leaving. California.

The government is trying to fix something that :

A. It can't fix itself. (its own finances are a joke) Its like hiring an account who is bankrupt to take care of your finances.
B. Was never created to fix.
and C. Has a terrible track record for their past attempts.

[odooley6985]

Originally Posted by scotty

Actually its pretty simple.

First off, the middle class do not pay more taxes than the rich, IN MONEY. Only in percentage. Millionares pay hundreds of thousands of dollars in taxes.

Secondly, the rich, ie; executives, are mostly business owners and investors. If it were not for thier business investments, the middle class would have no job.

Lets try economics 101. Give the rich tax breaks , especially business owners. The rich reinvest their money into their business or other business. The business expands. The expansion requires construction, purchases, further investment. That creates jobs. The middle class now have jobs and thus they prosper. They spend their prosperity putting money back into the economy. To make up for the middle class purchasing goods and services, business then have to expand and the cycle repeats itself.

On the side you now have more people in the workforce which creates more tax revenue. You have more consumer spending which creates more tax revenue.

Its just that simple.

On the other hand, if you raise taxes on the rich;ie business owners and investors. They cut back, stop expanding, stop investing. Jobs are lost. Which means no tax revenues. So the government has to raise the tax rate to compensate. This is what is happening now.

So instead of raising taxes, if they would keep them low and allow businesses and the economy to work on its own, we would be ok.

Look at places where they have jacked up the tax rate on the rich and big business. The rich and big business are leaving. California.

The government is trying to fix something that :

A. It can't fix itself. (its own finances are a joke) Its like hiring an account who is bankrupt to take care of your finances.
B. Was never created to fix.
and C. Has a terrible track record for their past attempts.

Again you have no data or actuall facts to back up "Lets give the rich tax breaks so us middle class peons can keep our jobs." That way of thinking is outdated and false. The only people who think that way are the Fox News people of the world. Again, so if the demand for their product is high, someone will close their business due to high taxes? Like I said, business owners have a long list of deductions they can take for their business. Demand creates jobs.

[odooley6985]

Please show me a period in our country where the tax rates on the rich were high and the rates on the middle class low and the economy was bad? Ill wait. I wont hold my breathe though cause I might die.

[scotty]

Originally Posted by odooley6985

Your little analogy is cute but lacks facts. So my guess is you are a supply side economic guy? So you are telling me the economy grows when the rich pay less? Them paying less allows them to hire more. Is that your line of thinking?

Yes.

Do you have facts to support that? I bet you dont.

Yes. And experience. During the Bush tax cuts my company (large trucking company) purchased 125 new trucks every year. We recorded an average of 13-15% growth every year. The government brought in more revenue than previous years. ( the fact that Bush squandered it on wars is irrelevant to income). My company expanded to purchased 3 new locations. Hired hundreds of people.

If supply side econ worked unemployment would be low right now. It isnt.

I am assuming your basing this off of the fact that during Obamer the Bush tax cuts were still in place. While this is true, the fact is that those cuts have been threatened with repeal every year since Obamer took office. As a result, my company has closed all 3 of those locations as well as 1 other we all ready had. We have purchased 0 trucks since 2008. Have laid off hundreds. Scared to invest.

Deman side is what drives a good economy. Give people extra money and they will spend it. So if you own a business and people are lining up around the block to buy your product, you are going to close shop cause your tax rate is to high?

The problem with this way of thinking is that people will spend that money and then what? Yep, its gone, done, over with. It causes a temporary spike in sales and then, once again, everyone is broke. It is not a long term solution. Businesses produce long term effects.

Not to mention all of the deductions you can deduct for owning a business. Look them up. You can get a deduction for wages you pay to an employee.

You also have to pay taxes for that employee and now, thanks to Obamer, you have to pay their healthcare.

I would be more mad at the GOPs idea of wanting to do away with some deductions (they still havent said which ones they want to do away with). The world will not end if the Clinton era tax rates are put into place. Some presidents had 90% rate on the highest earners and the economy didnt go to the pits.

See my above post.

[scotty]

Originally Posted by odooley6985

Again you have no data or actuall facts to back up "Lets give the rich tax breaks so us middle class peons can keep our jobs." That way of thinking is outdated and false. The only people who think that way are the Fox News people of the world. Again, so if the demand for their product is high, someone will close their business due to high taxes? Like I said, business owners have a long list of deductions they can take for their business. Demand creates jobs.

Yes, demand helps to create jobs. But you have to have money in the hands of the middle class to create demand. Tax cuts alone will not accomplish that.

Originally Posted by odooley6985

Please show me a period in our country where the tax rates on the rich were high and the rates on the middle class low and the economy was bad? Ill wait. I wont hold my breathe though cause I might die.

Sure. One word. Clinton. We are where we are for two reasons. Clinton raised taxes and created a so called 'budget surplus' that was false. I can create a surplus in my budget for the future too, doesn't mean its a realistic budget. Because of this, along with several credit programs, (Fanny Mae and Mack ring a bell?) cause everyone to go coocoo. Spending exceeded income, both in government and civilian budgets, all on trumped up surplus budget.

Second, Bush squandered the tax revenue on poorly planned war policies, otherwise the revenue created would have went back into the economy. How do I know? Because it was the same policies that Reagan put in place. And the two times in my life I have made the most money was during Reagan and Bush.