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  #1  
Old 04-29-2012, 10:07 PM
deacon blues deacon blues is offline
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Trying to Rescue Another from HMH Doctrine

Recently I received a private message on Facebook from a woman from my childhood who said looking at my FB she could tell we had no standards. She asked why people have changed from the way we were raised. I responded respectfully that I was not in the org that we were raised in and that we didn't embrace the traditional standards that we were taught primarily because either they weren't scriptural or that they were misinterpretations of scripture. I told her that in many cases the standards we were taught were also communicated to us as requirements for salvation. I told her the Bible teaches that Jesus is our salvation and trusting in Him is all we need.

She wrote back and said she had "trouble with cutting her hair" and that someone told her "the angels won't be around you anymore". I set the record straight, and told her that the Bible teaches no such thing. I told her that Jesus would never let strands of protein to come between Him and her. We wouldn't do that with our own children, how much more God?

Pray for this woman. I want to see her discover the beauty of God's grace and enjoy His acceptance rather than guilt and condemnation from pretenders.
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‎When a newspaper posed the question, "What's Wrong with the World?" G. K. Chesterton reputedly wrote a brief letter in response: "Dear Sirs: I am. Sincerely Yours, G. K. Chesterton." That is the attitude of someone who has grasped the message of Jesus.

Last edited by deacon blues; 04-29-2012 at 10:16 PM.
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  #2  
Old 04-29-2012, 10:13 PM
Steve Epley's Avatar
Steve Epley Steve Epley is offline
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Re: Trying to Rescue Another from HMH Doctrine

I hope she ignores you and does not follow you into your delusion.
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  #3  
Old 04-29-2012, 10:30 PM
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Jermyn Davidson Jermyn Davidson is offline
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Re: Trying to Rescue Another from HMH Doctrine

Could it be that GOD honors consecration, even if it is explained the wrong way?

Scripturally speaking, is there any support for GOD honoring the consecrations of men, even if they are wrong-headed, or unnecesary?
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Last edited by Jermyn Davidson; 04-29-2012 at 10:32 PM.
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  #4  
Old 04-29-2012, 10:39 PM
houston houston is offline
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Re: Trying to Rescue Another from HMH Doctrine

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Originally Posted by Steve Epley View Post
I hope she ignores you and does not follow you into your delusion.
I hope you come out of legalism.
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  #5  
Old 04-29-2012, 10:57 PM
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Re: Trying to Rescue Another from HMH Doctrine

This was posted on a forum on 11/25/09. I don't remember the forum name or the name of the person who posted it so I don't have his/her permission to post it here. I think it's a good exposition of 1 Corinthians 11:1-16

Here's my contribution. Hope it helps somewhat...

I’ll break down the entire passage and I think you’ll know where I’m coming from after we take a closer look at it. Here’s the passage breakdown…. I Corinthians 11:1-16….

1 Be ye followers of me, even as I also am of Christ.
2 Now I praise you, brethren, that ye remember me in all things, and keep the ordinances, as I delivered them to you.

Paul commends them for obeying the teachings he had previously delivered to them.


3 But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God.

Paul now wants to draw something to their attention. Paul breaks down headship. The head of every man is Christ, the head of the woman (wife) is the man (husband), and the head of Christ is God. Obviously there was an issue regarding this order told to Paul by Chloe, so Paul’s words imply that the women were not in subjection to their husbands. But what was the issue itself? The next few verses go into it…

4 Every man praying or prophesying, having his head covered, dishonoureth his head.

Here Paul states that every man who prays or prophesies with his head “covered” (Gk. kata, meaning, “something long hanging down over”) dishonors his “head” (i.e. Christ, for the head of every man is Christ). Many think this means long hair. Linguistically it could but it’s a stretch. One also has to ask, how would long hair shame Christ? Nazarites in their vow let their hair grow long, so obviously this doesn’t dishonor God. What could it be? Well, if we take it as meaning a veil we find that it would dishonor Christ. You see the male temple prostitutes would often dress like their goddesses and like women as part of their lascivious rituals. So if a man were to pray wearing a veil (a woman’s garment) in church gatherings he would be imitating the pagans. No doubt many of the men of the church used to worship in the pagan temples. Maybe some were coming with veils not fully understanding the Christian methods of worship. Maybe Paul was just laying the ground work for the next few points by addressing men first. But either way, if we understand that Paul was talking about a veil, it begins to make sense.

5 But every woman that prayeth or prophesieth with her head uncovered dishonoureth her head: for that is even all one as if she were shaven.

Here Paul turns to the women. He states that if a woman prays or prophesies with her head “uncovered” (Gk. akatakaluptos, meaning “unveiled”) she dishonors her head (i.e. her husband, for the head of every wife is the husband). Paul then says that if a woman prays with her head unveiled, it is AS IF she were shaven. So here we see Paul drawing a comparison between two conditions: being unveiled and being shaven. The two are obviously not the same thing, though in Paul’s mind being unveiled is just as bad as being shaven. Why would it be dishonoring for a woman to be shaven? As part of the Nazarite vow women shaved their heads when the vow was finished in honor of God, so a woman being shaven obviously doesn’t directly dishonor God or a woman’s husband. However, we have to know something about ancient Grecia and Asia Minor. When a woman was caught in adultery in these pagan nations they’d publicly shame her by shaving or shearing her head. When Paul sad that if a woman prayed unveiled it was as if she were shaven, it would make a Corinthian Christian gasp; because essentially Paul was saying if you pray unveiled you look like an adulteress.

6 For if the woman be not covered, let her also be shorn: but if it be a shame for a woman to be shorn or shaven, let her be covered.

Here Paul is angry because he uses some of the most powerful language in this passage. Paul zeroes in on women saying that if a woman will not be covered (implying un-submission), she is to have her hair shorn like an adulteress. Obviously this would horrify our first century Corinthian readers. Paul then explains that but if they know how shameful it is to be shorn or shaven as an adulteress, they should submit and put their veils back on. This verse is actually strong evidence that Paul isn’t addressing hair. Because Paul implies that a woman can choose to put her covering back on. No so with hair, because hair must be given time to grow.

7 For a man indeed ought not to cover his head, forasmuch as he is the image and glory of God: but the woman is the glory of the man.

Paul now explains some deeper things. Paul states that man in principle shouldn’t be covered because he is the glory of God. He is made in God’s image and is to worship and give honor to God. However, the woman is the glory of the man. A man’s wife brings him honor and glory when she’s in submission and living modestly (in this instance veiled).

8 For the man is not of the woman: but the woman of the man.
9 Neither was the man created for the woman; but the woman for the man.

This is because the woman was made from man, not man from woman. In addition the man wasn’t created for the woman, but the woman was created for the man.

10 For this cause ought the woman to have power on her head because of the angels.

The meaning of this verse is widely disputed. I believe Paul is saying that the Corinthian women should signify their submission to their husbands by placing their veils back on, giving their husbands authority over their heads. This is important because we all know what happened when the angels refused to be submitted, they were cast out. It could also mean that there is a special ministry of angels that a woman can experience when she’s submitted to her husband. I understand that there are multiple interpretations of this verse, but this is my take on it.

11 Nevertheless neither is the man without the woman, neither the woman without the man, in the Lord.
12 For as the woman is of the man, even so is the man also by the woman; but all things of God.

Here Paul demonstrates that though there is headship and authority a woman isn’t to be denigrated or disrespected, there should be mutual respect. This is because there would be no men without women or women without men, after all every woman born was born from the seed of a man and every man born was born of a woman. Everything about this is of God’s design.

13 Judge in yourselves: is it comely that a woman pray unto God uncovered?

Here Paul asks them a personal question. He asks them to look and determine for themselves if it’s proper for a woman to pray without a veil. And then Paul turns toward a supporting argument as part of his polemic….

14 Doth not even nature itself teach you, that, if a man have long hair, it is a shame unto him?
15 But if a woman have long hair, it is a glory to her: for her hair is given her for a covering.

Here Paul draws an example from nature to support his admonishment to women that they should wear their veil in public worship. Paul demonstrates that even nature mirrors this standard of decency because even nature demonstrates that if a man has long hair it’s a shame for him; but if a woman has long hair it is her beauty and glory, this because nature has given her long hair for a covering. Now this word “covering” is interesting. It is “peribolaion” meaning a “covering (veil) wrapped around”. So in the Greek it would read more accurately, “for her hair is given her for a wrap around veil (or 'wrapping')." Here hair was given to her for the veil. Her hair was given as a glory to be covered in modesty.

16 But if any man seem to be contentious, we have no such custom, neither the churches of God.

Here Paul is saying that if any believer be contentious, rebellious, and disregarding of headship and modesty in worship, we have no such custom.

Well…I hope that helps explain my angle Bro. ----. I've done much prayer and study on this passage and this is my take on it. As you can see, I don’t see anything in this passage specifically about cut or uncut hair on a woman other than a reference to the specific practice of shearing the head of adulteresses as public humiliation. We don’t do that today, so it isn’t a shameful thing that would destroy our witness, as being shorn or unveiled would for a Corinthian believer in the first century. According to my understanding the passage is primarily about submission and modesty.

If we just let the passage say what it says naturally, we will understand it. The confusion is stems from the effort by some to force it to teach uncut hair for women.

God bless.
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  #6  
Old 04-29-2012, 11:13 PM
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Jay Jay is offline
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Re: Trying to Rescue Another from HMH Doctrine

According to what you just posted, Sam, the woman's uncut hair is in fact her vail and glory. Further, the word translated as shame in this passage could also be translated as an abomination, and when studied is the same word that Paul uses in Romans when describing homosexual practices. Therefore, a woman who cuts her hair is in the same sin as a cross-dresser or lesbian. And a man who wears his hair uncut is guilty of a sin on par with homosexuality.
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  #7  
Old 04-29-2012, 11:22 PM
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Hoovie Hoovie is offline
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Re: Trying to Rescue Another from HMH Doctrine

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jay View Post
According to what you just posted, Sam, the woman's uncut hair is in fact her vail and glory. Further, the word translated as shame in this passage could also be translated as an abomination, and when studied is the same word that Paul uses in Romans when describing homosexual practices. Therefore, a woman who cuts her hair is in the same sin as a cross-dresser or lesbian. And a man who wears his hair uncut is guilty of a sin on par with homosexuality.
Uncut? I am fine with uncut hair but where does it say that?
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  #8  
Old 04-29-2012, 11:26 PM
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Re: Trying to Rescue Another from HMH Doctrine

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jay View Post
According to what you just posted, Sam, the woman's uncut hair is in fact her vail and glory. Further, the word translated as shame in this passage could also be translated as an abomination, and when studied is the same word that Paul uses in Romans when describing homosexual practices. Therefore, a woman who cuts her hair is in the same sin as a cross-dresser or lesbian. And a man who wears his hair uncut is guilty of a sin on par with homosexuality.
Is that the "shame" used in few chapters further that states it's a shame for a woman to speak in church?
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Old 04-29-2012, 11:47 PM
AreYouReady? AreYouReady? is offline
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Re: Trying to Rescue Another from HMH Doctrine

This gets old....some men, who don't have to put up with long uncut hair, telling women to never cut their hair.
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  #10  
Old 04-29-2012, 11:51 PM
houston houston is offline
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Re: Trying to Rescue Another from HMH Doctrine

Quote:
Originally Posted by RevDWW View Post
Is that the "shame" used in few chapters further that states it's a shame for a woman to speak in church?
is it?
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