Submit Yourselves!

[noeticknight]

"However, the Scripture indicates a connection between the accounting given by those who "have the rule over you" (Paul's words, not mine), and our own judgment.

Heb 13:17 Obey them that have the rule over you, and submit yourselves: for they watch for your souls, as they that must give account, that they may do it with joy, and not with grief: for that is unprofitable for you.

I am not exactly sure how this is going to play out, and I don't figure anybody else does either." -Coonskinner

In my religious upbringing, I’m sure I heard more emphasis placed on Hebrews 13:17 than what would be considered average or even balanced (especially in light of the context of the passages surrounding it). It became familiar to me as the verse where Paul delegates ultimate authority to the “church ruler” or “pastor,” especially in cases where organizationally defined boundaries are challenged or as an end all answer to those fuzzy situations in between. There were many times when this verse was brought up after families in the church would inquire about the extra-biblical teachings or the alleged spiritual applications to the church’s membership standards. In short, it was used as a cruel instrument from those who wielded it from the pulpit to quell questioning from church members. If leadership perceived a corporate unrest, or sensed a shift of power to the people, not only was this verse brought up to foretell of “the pastor’s duty on Judgment Day,” but it was served up heavy and with a good dose of fear dripping down the sides. As a result, it became an ugly verse to me. My heart always sunk when it was mentioned.

It was some time after departing from that kind of authoritarianism that my studies eventually brought me around again to the book of Hebrews and to that chapter and verse. I read it many times and in many different translations. I read several well-researched commentaries on it. I read it in context with the rest of the passages proceeding and succeeding it. I read it with friends and family. And finally, I judged its force and intention within the greater scope of the teachings given to Christian disciples by Jesus Christ, and in conjunction with the didactic instructions for the Early Church by the Apostles. And guess what? I fell in love with it. The “minister” I sat under had grossly misunderstood the verse, or if he did, had blackened its meanings with his struggle for control. His logic of it had shaped him into some sort of “life manager” of the saints. But the author of Hebrews suggests something else.

[BeenThinkin]

You got to be kidding!!! Just kidding.....

Been Thinkin

[noeticknight]

First and foremost these passages are written concerning brotherly love. Consider the first verse:

“Let brotherly love continue.” This is not only a gracious salutation, but sets up the theme for other spiritual motifs appearing in the subsequent verses.

(Assuming the author is Paul), he goes on to touch on the proper conduct of the believer by mentioning the sacredness of marriage and the absence of covetousness. In verse 7 he encourages his readers to respect the authority of those who had brought them the word of God and to imitate their walk of faith. In verse 9, he seems to counterbalance the notion of blind submission by instructing everyone to exercise conscientiousness and prudence in their acceptance of doctrines.

"Be not carried about with divers and strange doctrines. For it is a good thing that the heart be established with grace; not with meats, which have not profited them that have been occupied therein."

I think the key part here is his emphasis on the grace of God. Paul would that every believer be anchored first and foremost in the cohesive nature of grace, which is the allowance of their salvation. He then draws some comparisons between past burnt offerings for sin and the selfless sacrifice of Jesus “that He might purify and consecrate the people through [the shedding of] His own blood and set them apart as holy [for God].” Just a few words later, Paul scratches out verse 17:

“Obey them that have the rule over you, and submit yourselves: for they watch for your souls, as they that must give account, that they may do it with joy, and not with grief: for that is unprofitable for you.”

Without belaboring the point, I’ll paraphrase what I think this verse is saying in the context of passages connected to it. Paul is saying,

Obey, heed, and submit to those who have taught you the way of Christ. Obey what? The Gospel of Christ from which they maintain authority. It is not a vertical pole of power or military rank and file type of authority. It is their connectedness to the Body of Christ and His words which they themselves are constantly submitted to! Like a honeycomb of cells expanding out from the center of the source of sweetness! Christ’s followers must all be brought under one gospel, connected, interlinked, and submitted.

Why the special emphasis on those “over you” in the church? Because it is they who look after and carefully give protection to your spiritual welfare in the Body of Christ. And not just that, but they do it as men who would have to give an account for their stewardship, i.e., they perform their duty like servants! Knowing these letters would be eagerly shared by everyone in church community, it is possible that Paul is gently nudging or challenging the elders also to be as “diligent as a man who would have to give an account for his services.” Of course, it perfectly highlights the reality of our ultimate obligation to Christ, and the words, intentionally or not, play on the nuance that we will all have to give an account for our actions in the end anyhow.

But how can they be servants if they are rulers? Simple. Because in the Christian paradox, up is down and first is last. Those that rule are really those that serve. And that is why he is instructing his readers to “continue in brotherly love” by respecting, following, and regarding those who are in positions of spiritual servitude by doing each one’s part in fairness. Anything else would be inequitable and place unnecessary burden on others, including those who are willing to teach. That of course would be unprofitable for everyone, especially for those trying to learn and follow in the doctrines of Christ.

Verse 25: "Grace be with you all. Amen."

[noeticknight]

Note that there is no explicit mention of Judgment Day here. Paul is not attempting to shore up contentions and strife with a coronation of a pastor to rule the unruly. He is not using fear to promote conformity in the church. He is not suggesting that some man or some flesh and blood mortal will one day hold his church members hands one by one and “give an account for them” on the Day of Judgment” (which, by the way, is ludicrous to begin with). The Scriptures declare that each soul will give an account for himself (2 Corinthians 5:10). Wouldn’t a teaching that requires men to vouch for other men in matters of eternal gravity undermine the very sovereignty of God? How can mere mortals compare to the omniscience of God? Does God not already and forever understand the inner heart of all living creatures? And for those who teach it, where do the other scriptures demonstrate and give support to this idea?

I understand now that my former “pastor” was using this verse to promote a doctrine of “spiritual accountability” to the “men of God.” In actuality, the letter is declaring to each Christian an obligation to submit to the ministry of the Gospel, while respecting those who are in voluntary positions of service to deliver it. And most often than not, it is a joy and a reward for all to participate in the Christian principles of submission, especially when brotherly love is continuing.

[NotforSale]

Originally Posted by noeticknight

In my religious upbringing, I’m sure I heard more emphasis placed on Hebrews 13:17 than what would be considered average or even balanced (especially in light of the context of the passages surrounding it). It became familiar to me as the verse where Paul delegates ultimate authority to the “church ruler” or “pastor,” especially in cases where organizationally defined boundaries are challenged or as an end all answer to those fuzzy situations in between. There were many times when this verse was brought up after families in the church would inquire about the extra-biblical teachings or the alleged spiritual applications to the church’s membership standards. In short, it was used as a cruel instrument from those who wielded it from the pulpit to quell questioning from church members. If leadership perceived a corporate unrest, or sensed a shift of power to the people, not only was this verse brought up to foretell of “the pastor’s duty on Judgment Day,” but it was served up heavy and with a good dose of fear dripping down the sides. As a result, it became an ugly verse to me. My heart always sunk when it was mentioned.

It was some time after departing from that kind of authoritarianism that my studies eventually brought me around again to the book of Hebrews and to that chapter and verse. I read it many times and in many different translations. I read several well-researched commentaries on it. I read it in context with the rest of the passages proceeding and succeeding it. I read it with friends and family. And finally, I judged its force and intention within the greater scope of the teachings given to Christian disciples by Jesus Christ, and in conjunction with the didactic instructions for the Early Church by the Apostles. And guess what? I fell in love with it. The “minister” I sat under had grossly misunderstood the verse, or if he did, had blackened its meanings with his struggle for control. His logic of it had shaped him into some sort of “life manager” of the saints. But the author of Hebrews suggests something else.

I too, was hammered with this thinking back in the 70's, when I found my lonely soul on an Apostolic pew. If I ventured anywhere on my own, out came this "Fear Bag"! SUBMIT, or pay!

But it didn't stop with the Ministry. We were instructed that wives were to OBEY their husbands, which seemed to be about the same thing; SUBMIT, or pay!

Then you crack the whip in Samuel, where Saul disobeys a direct order by not killing the King of Amalek, calling his REBELLION as the sin of witchcraft, and people were practically falling on the ground in obedience to the Pastor, even while he was living in Adultery.

A few years later, when the pastor got a divorce and this Church fell apart, I began to realize that this demand to obey was having horrific ramifications upon those in Authority. It became obvious to me, that no human should be allowed such power; it doesn't matter if it's in Religion, Politics, or the Father of a family.

Unless you’re in the Military, submission to anyone should rest in humility and respect, earned through patience and love.

[noeticknight]

Unfortunately, the teaching is alive and well. The assembly I used to attend still holds to this doctrine.

Originally Posted by NotforSale

Unless you’re in the Military, submission to anyone should rest in humility and respect, earned through patience and love.

Well put!

[UnTraditional]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E0XVV3gc464

[noeticknight]

UT,
Very relevant. I think his discussion linking “pastor worship” to idolatry was insightful.

I would also point out that while many have fallen victim by allowing this incorrect teaching to permeate their churches regarding “spiritual accountability” to men, others often just get caught up in the (sometimes) confusing language translations of the Scripture. Another reason it’s so critical to use proper techniques in Biblical hermeneutics to draw out the correct meanings and intentions in the passages of the Word. Of course, and always, seeking the truth with the guidance of the Holy Spirit...

[Truthseeker]

Originally Posted by NotforSale

I too, was hammered with this thinking back in the 70's, when I found my lonely soul on an Apostolic pew. If I ventured anywhere on my own, out came this "Fear Bag"! SUBMIT, or pay!

But it didn't stop with the Ministry. We were instructed that wives were to OBEY their husbands, which seemed to be about the same thing; SUBMIT, or pay!

Then you crack the whip in Samuel, where Saul disobeys a direct order by not killing the King of Amalek, calling his REBELLION as the sin of witchcraft, and people were practically falling on the ground in obedience to the Pastor, even while he was living in Adultery.

A few years later, when the pastor got a divorce and this Church fell apart, I began to realize that this demand to obey was having horrific ramifications upon those in Authority. It became obvious to me, that no human should be allowed such power; it doesn't matter if it's in Religion, Politics, or the Father of a family.

Unless you’re in the Military, submission to anyone should rest in humility and respect, earned through patience and love.

Bible does say wives obey their husbands.

[noeticknight]

Originally Posted by Truthseeker

Bible does say wives obey their husbands.

T,

Which verses are you thinking of?

Do any of them address the husband?