Read This Very Interesting about Tithing?

[corvet786c]

This blew me away when I read it.


http://www.truthorfables.com/Tithe_Test.htm

[coadie]

Originally Posted by corvet786c

This blew me away when I read it.


http://www.truthorfables.com/Tithe_Test.htm

Exposing Seventh-day Adventist Fables


Are you all familiar with SDA's?

[corvet786c]

Notice: Dr. Sapp is not affiliated or ever have affiliated with the SDA church, so do not write him about Seventh-day Adventist/Ellen G. White issues.

[Sister Alvear]

however he seems very informed about SDA...

[coadie]

Originally Posted by corvet786c

Notice: Dr. Sapp is not affiliated or ever have affiliated with the SDA church, so do not write him about Seventh-day Adventist/Ellen G. White issues.

I saw that. He argues against them. He understands their fundamental doctrines i suspect.

[corvet786c]

In the Christian Church, as those who serve the altar should live by the altar (1 Corinthians 9:13), provision of some kind had necessarily to be made for the sacred ministers. In the beginning this was supplied by the spontaneous offerings of the faithful. In the course of time, however, as the Church expanded and various institutions arose, it became necessary to make laws which would insure the proper and permanent support of the clergy. The payment of tithes was adopted from the Old Law, and early writers speak of it as a divine ordinance and an obligation of conscience. The earliest positive legislation on the subject seems to be contained in the letter of the bishops assembled at Tours in 567 and the canons of the Council of Maçon in 585. In course of time, we find the payment of tithes made obligatory by ecclesiastical enactments in all the countries of christendom. The Church looked on this payment as "of divine law, since tithes were instituted not by man but by the Lord Himself" (C. 14, X de decim. III, 30). As regards the civil power, the Christian Roman emperors granted the right to churches of retaining a portion of the produce of certain lands, but the earliest instance of the enforcement of the payment of ecclesiastical tithes by civil law is to be found in the capitularies of Charlemagne, at the end of the eighth century. English law very early recognized the tithe, as in the reigns of Athelstan, Edgar, and Canute before the Norman Conquest. In English statute law proper, however, the first mention of tithes is to be found in the Statute of Westminister of 1285. Tithes are of three kinds: predial, or that derived from the annual crops; mixed, or what arises from things nourished by the land, as cattle, milk, cheese, wool; and personal or the result of industry or occupation. Predial tithes were generally called great tithes, and mixed and personal tithes, small tithes. Natural substances having no annual increase are not tithable, nor are wild animals. When property is inherited or donated, it is not subject to the law of tithes, but its natural increase is. There are many exempted from the paying of tithes: spiritual corporations, the owners of uncultivated lands, those who have acquired lawful prescription, or have obtained a legal renunciation, or received a privilege from the pope.


This is from the catholic encyclopedia


http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/14741b.htm

Its refrencing the council of macon in 585 AD where the obligation was developed to pay tithes to the clergy of the catholic church. The Church looked on this payment as "of divine law, since tithes were instituted not by man but by the Lord Himself" (C. 14, X de decim. III, 30). As regards the civil power, the Christian Roman emperors granted the right to churches of retaining a portion of the produce of certain lands, but the earliest instance of the enforcement of the payment of ecclesiastical tithes by civil law is to be found in the capitularies of Charlemagne, at the end of the eighth century.

[A.W. Bowman]

Actually, Dr. Sapp could well have been talking about any number of modern-day churches/organizations.

However, here are a couple of additional points:

To receive or to give biblical tithes that does not end in the hands of the Levitical priesthood, those serving in the Temple (not the synagogues), is a violation of the Covenant law.

That the tithe was only a portion of the support the Priesthood received, i.e., that the bulk of their food stuff was produced by the tribe of Levi in the assigned land around Jerusalem and the Cities of Refugee. They also engaged in the trades and professions, for not every member of the Tribe served in the Temple.

The the tithes were paid only in certain years and that the Levite priests were to tithe on their tithes to the High Priest and also to set aside a tithe for the poor, the widows, fatherless, and the 'strangers' (non Jews) that were among them, even for everyone who served in the Temple.This was the subject that Malachi was addressing in his book.

While the list can go one for several pages, let's cut to the chase.

Ever wonder why observant Jews will neither pay or receive tithes? Because there is no longer a functioning Levitical priesthood and there is no Temple of the Lord to serve in. Synagogues are not supported by tithes! The bottom line is this, to require tithing or to pay tithes according to a legal mandate, is to sin.

The first sin is in violation of Deuteronomy 12:32, where man has altered [done violence to] the word of God for their own benefit, and/or to advance a human centered agenda. Where man has taken scripture out of context, twisted it, modified it, and combined it with other such mishandled scriptures, and presented the resulting human doctrine as being directly from God.

The second sin is: Without the Temple and its functioning priesthood, tithing is reduced the paying of a religiously mandated bribe or tribute to one who is not authorized by the Law to receive it. Sometimes this payment is required before one is allowed to exercise their God ordained calling and/or gifting within a church. This man imposed tribute is sometimes referred to extortion, another biblically defined sin. This activity takes on a sinister aspect when those demanding tithes be paid to them appeal to the Mt. Sinai Covenant Law, that they frequently reject in favor for New Covenant grace – neither knowing or understanding the Law they embrace, nor the grace they seek. See 1 Timothy 1:7. Biblical giving is a principle of sharing with those in need, where tithing is strictly of the ordinances and statutes of the Law.

Why are these two actions considered to be 'sin', because, as noted in 1John 3:4 [KJV]),
Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.

A very nice and concise definition of what sin is. Also remembering, that by faith we actually establish the Law (God’s Instructions in Righteousness). See Romans 3:31.

But, what about the question of supporting the ministry?

First, not all who minister are to be supported by a congregation. The biblical adage of he “who doesn’t work, doesn’t eat”, still hold true. When an elder is a pointed within an assembly, he does not retire from life and become a ‘full-time’ minister who is to be supported upon the backs of the congregation. However, we have ample examples of Paul exhorting the different churches to send our and to receive those who are traveling within their ministerial office and performing assigned ministerial duties. Those who must travel, such as apostles, prophets and evangelists, and others sent out to minister to several assembles, are to receive clothing, housing, food, and monetary assistance to support them while ministering and to give them support on their travels. This is right and should be an expected norm of behavior.

Concerning the argument that if tithing was not taught as a required, how would the local church support its self (survive)? There are two fallacies here: The first is the assumption that the saints will not support the work of the church unless forced (badgered, made to feel guilty, badgered, blackmailed, etc.) into paying for the privilege of meeting together for worshiping God. Solution: Teach the concept, precept, and principles of giving, sharing, and supporting of the church ministry. The second fallacy is the prideful assumption that just because one evokes the name of Jesus, they automatically have His approval for their activities. It never seems to cross anyone’s mind that if a congregation cannot or will not support the local church building and its purported ministries, that perhaps that church/ministry should fold, and not kept functioning of forced support, even while its heart and brain have ceased to operate!

Remember, God will always show up according to the faith of individuals, even when the majority of the assembly is already dead. So, when He does manifest Himself, consider, He just might be there as a visitor in the house, not as the master of it.

-------------------

Do the math: 10 people making an average of $20,000 per year tithe. That yields $200,000 per year average congregational income. A tithe on that yields an annual income to the pastor of $20,000 per year. That worked out rather well all the way around.

Increase the number in the congregation to 40. 60, or 80, who make an average of $20,000 per year and tithe. At 80 members that is a congregational income of $1,600,000. The tithe on that equals $160,000. The pastor can now improve his lifestyle to eight times better than that of the average member of ‘his congregation’ – and all too frequently does! Now, tell me, what is the biblical/spiritual principle that this example of tithing is suppose to represent? Finally, take notice: The cross-pastoral charges of ‘sheep stealing’ now takes on its true significance. Number do count!

Question: When did the children of God become as livestock, to be milked and sheared by a shepherd, who may not even been called of God to that office? It is time to get back to the Bible. Biblical tithing was where eleven extended families (tribes) got together and provided partial food support for a portion of one extended family (tribe). Eleven tribes of Israel did not, and was not required to provide for all of the living needs of one tribe! To adopt that viewpoint is Roman thinking.

[Jermyn Davidson]

So why do some people preach it as a blessings or cursings / heaven or hell issue?

Surely there has to be Bible to back this logic up. It can't be all "extra-biblical".

Even my Pastor preaches about the necessity of tithing-- the Bible commands, the blessings that flow from obedience and the cursings that come from disobedience.

[coadie]

Originally Posted by HaShaliach

Actually, Dr. Sapp could well have been talking about any number of modern-day churches/organizations.

However, here are a couple of additional points:

To receive or to give biblical tithes that does not end in the hands of the Levitical priesthood, those serving in the Temple (not the synagogues), is a violation of the Covenant law.

That the tithe was only a portion of the support the Priesthood received, i.e., that the bulk of their food stuff was produced by the tribe of Levi in the assigned land around Jerusalem and the Cities of Refugee. They also engaged in the trades and professions, for not every member of the Tribe served in the Temple.

The the tithes were paid only in certain years and that the Levite priests were to tithe on their tithes to the High Priest and also to set aside a tithe for the poor, the widows, fatherless, and the 'strangers' (non Jews) that were among them, even for everyone who served in the Temple.This was the subject that Malachi was addressing in his book.

While the list can go one for several pages, let's cut to the chase.

Ever wonder why observant Jews will neither pay or receive tithes? Because there is no longer a functioning Levitical priesthood and there is no Temple of the Lord to serve in. Synagogues are not supported by tithes! The bottom line is this, to require tithing or to pay tithes according to a legal mandate, is to sin.

The first sin is in violation of Deuteronomy 12:32, where man has altered [done violence to] the word of God for their own benefit, and/or to advance a human centered agenda. Where man has taken scripture out of context, twisted it, modified it, and combined it with other such mishandled scriptures, and presented the resulting human doctrine as being directly from God.

The second sin is: Without the Temple and its functioning priesthood, tithing is reduced the paying of a religiously mandated bribe or tribute to one who is not authorized by the Law to receive it. Sometimes this payment is required before one is allowed to exercise their God ordained calling and/or gifting within a church. This man imposed tribute is sometimes referred to extortion, another biblically defined sin. This activity takes on a sinister aspect when those demanding tithes be paid to them appeal to the Mt. Sinai Covenant Law, that they frequently reject in favor for New Covenant grace – neither knowing or understanding the Law they embrace, nor the grace they seek. See 1 Timothy 1:7. Biblical giving is a principle of sharing with those in need, where tithing is strictly of the ordinances and statutes of the Law.

Why are these two actions considered to be 'sin', because, as noted in 1John 3:4 [KJV]),
Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.

A very nice and concise definition of what sin is. Also remembering, that by faith we actually establish the Law (God’s Instructions in Righteousness). See Romans 3:31.

But, what about the question of supporting the ministry?

First, not all who minister are to be supported by a congregation. The biblical adage of he “who doesn’t work, doesn’t eat”, still hold true. When an elder is a pointed within an assembly, he does not retire from life and become a ‘full-time’ minister who is to be supported upon the backs of the congregation. However, we have ample examples of Paul exhorting the different churches to send our and to receive those who are traveling within their ministerial office and performing assigned ministerial duties. Those who must travel, such as apostles, prophets and evangelists, and others sent out to minister to several assembles, are to receive clothing, housing, food, and monetary assistance to support them while ministering and to give them support on their travels. This is right and should be an expected norm of behavior.

Concerning the argument that if tithing was not taught as a required, how would the local church support its self (survive)? There are two fallacies here: The first is the assumption that the saints will not support the work of the church unless forced (badgered, made to feel guilty, badgered, blackmailed, etc.) into paying for the privilege of meeting together for worshiping God. Solution: Teach the concept, precept, and principles of giving, sharing, and supporting of the church ministry. The second fallacy is the prideful assumption that just because one evokes the name of Jesus, they automatically have His approval for their activities. It never seems to cross anyone’s mind that if a congregation cannot or will not support the local church building and its purported ministries, that perhaps that church/ministry should fold, and not kept functioning of forced support, even while its heart and brain have ceased to operate!

Remember, God will always show up according to the faith of individuals, even when the majority of the assembly is already dead. So, when He does manifest Himself, consider, He just might be there as a visitor in the house, not as the master of it.

-------------------

Do the math: 10 people making an average of $20,000 per year tithe. That yields $200,000 per year average congregational income. A tithe on that yields an annual income to the pastor of $20,000 per year. That worked out rather well all the way around.

Increase the number in the congregation to 40. 60, or 80, who make an average of $20,000 per year and tithe. At 80 members that is a congregational income of $1,600,000. The tithe on that equals $160,000. The pastor can now improve his lifestyle to eight times better than that of the average member of ‘his congregation’ – and all too frequently does! Now, tell me, what is the biblical/spiritual principle that this example of tithing is suppose to represent? Finally, take notice: The cross-pastoral charges of ‘sheep stealing’ now takes on its true significance. Number do count!

Question: When did the children of God become as livestock, to be milked and sheared by a shepherd, who may not even been called of God to that office? It is time to get back to the Bible. Biblical tithing was where eleven extended families (tribes) got together and provided partial food support for a portion of one extended family (tribe). Eleven tribes of Israel did not, and was not required to provide for all of the living needs of one tribe! To adopt that viewpoint is Roman thinking.

Our pastor doesn't look at records of offerings. I suspect the actual pattern varies within denominations.

[A.W. Bowman]

Originally Posted by Jermyn Davidson

So why do some people preach it as a blessings or cursings / heaven or hell issue?

Surely there has to be Bible to back this logic up. It can't be all "extra-biblical".

Even my Pastor preaches about the necessity of tithing-- the Bible commands, the blessings that flow from obedience and the cursings that come from disobedience.

Excellent points.

First, one must keep in mind that among some organizations tithing is considered as important as their stand on marriage and the second coming of Christ, i.e., the concept has be enshrined in some organization's statements/articles of faith. It is not likely any of these folks will change their opinions on this subject any time soon.

Now, is tithing, in and of its self, a sin? Absolutely not, so long as it freely given, and not paid out of compulsion as a religious mandated requirement. At one point my personal 'tithes' ranged up in the 20% area. I could afford it and the church needed it. When my fortune turned and I could no longer afford even 5%, I still gave what I could.

The lesson here is this, if one is going to attempt to use the law of tithing to justify requiring the congregation pay 10% of their total income to a church/minister, then one must teach and practice all of the laws, ordinances and statutes that govern tithing. If one places themselves under the Law, then they are also subject to the entire Law! There are no recorded exceptions to this doctrine, as ever having been granted by God.

We cannot claim any right to the tithe proceeds mandated under the law, while we are also agreeing that the ordinances of that same Law were nailed to the cross. Or, we are left with no option but to change the word of God so as to allow an exception in this case. This attitude toward scripture has to make someone out to be a lair and a false teacher.

Conclusion: There are no supporting scriptures for the modern-day doctrine on tithing. All referenced scriptures for this doctrine have to be taken out of their original context, and/or willfully misinterpreted. However, that freedom should allow one to give according to the New Covenant precepts. Give freely and abundantly, as you purpose in your heart to give - and in compassion to meet the needs of others.

The 'heaven or hell' issue for imposing tithing on a congregation is not scriptural, unless it is used to tempt one into sin.

And, be clear, not all obedience is scriptural!