Exodus 19 and boundries

[Justin]

The following verse are often used by Pastors to allow them to set rules for their flock:

Ex19 (New Living Translation)

9 Then the Lord said to Moses, “I will come to you in a thick cloud, Moses, so the people themselves can hear me when I speak with you. Then they will always trust you.”

Moses told the Lord what the people had said. 10 Then the Lord told Moses, “Go down and prepare the people for my arrival. Consecrate them today and tomorrow, and have them wash their clothing. 11 Be sure they are ready on the third day, for on that day the Lord will come down on Mount Sinai as all the people watch. 12 Mark off a boundary all around the mountain. Warn the people, ‘Be careful! Do not go up on the mountain or even touch its boundaries. Anyone who touches the mountain will certainly be put to death. 13 No hand may touch the person or animal that crosses the boundary; instead, stone them or shoot them with arrows. They must be put to death.’ However, when the ram’s horn sounds a long blast, then the people may go up on the mountain.[b]”

14 So Moses went down to the people. He consecrated them for worship, and they washed their clothes. 15 He told them, “Get ready for the third day, and until then abstain from having sexual intercourse.”

16 On the morning of the third day, thunder roared and lightning flashed, and a dense cloud came down on the mountain. There was a long, loud blast from a ram’s horn, and all the people trembled. 17 Moses led them out from the camp to meet with God, and they stood at the foot of the mountain. 18 All of Mount Sinai was covered with smoke because the Lord had descended on it in the form of fire. The smoke billowed into the sky like smoke from a brick kiln, and the whole mountain shook violently. 19 As the blast of the ram’s horn grew louder and louder, Moses spoke, and God thundered his reply. 20 The Lord came down on the top of Mount Sinai and called Moses to the top of the mountain. So Moses climbed the mountain.

21 Then the Lord told Moses, “Go back down and warn the people not to break through the boundaries to see the Lord, or they will die. 22 Even the priests who regularly come near to the Lord must purify themselves so that the Lord does not break out and destroy them.”

23 “But Lord,” Moses protested, “the people cannot come up to Mount Sinai. You already warned us. You told me, ‘Mark off a boundary all around the mountain to set it apart as holy.’”

24 But the Lord said, “Go down and bring Aaron back up with you. In the meantime, do not let the priests or the people break through to approach the Lord, or he will break out and destroy them.”

25 So Moses went down to the people and told them what the Lord had said.

I understand that the whole point of this text was to mark the mountain as Holy, and to keep the people away from the Lord. But once they were clean, they could approach the mountain when the rams horn was blown. Notice the people went to the foot of the mountain, but then God says in verse 21 to not let anyone past the boundries.

Am I correct in thinking that they did in fact cross the boundries when the horn blew to see God desending from the mountain, and in verse 21 God told Moses to back them "back up" past the boundries again while He gave Moses and Aaron the commandments?

[RandyWayne]

The obvious huge difference here is that this is all about boundaries between man and God -not man and the world or a fence of standards to be arbitrarily decided. You could say that this went the way of the veil separating the holiest of holies at the time of Christs death.

[missourimary]

I always thought that they stood way further back from the boundaries than they would have had to. I'll look into that more... maybe when I wake up... zzzzzzzzzzzz

[jagwinn]

Bro,
Do not look at boundries as restrictive to you. Instead, boundries are to keep the world out!
If you ask God to lead you, and he directs you to a church with a man of God (who is there, by the way, by the direct placement from God) and then you cannot obey the man God has chosen for you, then how can you obey without hesitation any word from God?
Do you not feel that the man God has placed in the pulpit is hearing God? Trust me on this point..God will direct a church through the man he places as the pastor.

Saul lost his future kingdom, and the kingdom of his children, because he could not/would not obey the man of God [Samuel]. Saul thought he had a better idea than who God was using.

1Sa 15:22 And Samuel said, Hath the LORD [as great] delight in burnt offerings and sacrifices, as in obeying the voice of the LORD? Behold, to obey [is] better than sacrifice, [and] to hearken than the fat of rams.


1Sa 15:23 For rebellion [is as] the sin of witchcraft, and stubbornness [is as] iniquity and idolatry. Because thou hast rejected the word of the LORD, he hath also rejected thee from [being] king.

The selfishness of the world; lust of the eye, lust of the flesh and the pride of life, is what is dissolving the true walk with God today.

.

[pelathais]

Originally Posted by RandyWayne

The obvious huge difference here is that this is all about boundaries between man and God -not man and the world or a fence of standards to be arbitrarily decided. You could say that this went the way of the veil separating the holiest of holies at the time of Christs death.

You are correct. Those that want to use this to support the nonsense of "a pastor" setting extra-Biblical standards are upside down. So many of our preachers do everything backward from a Biblical perspective.

The "boundaries" in Exodus 19, are set specifically to keep people away from God - NOT to keep them close to God!

The Law was on the mount. The Law was to be the instrument that would make a way for the people to be brought to God. At the time the Law was being given the people were unclean and could not come up the Mount. God cleansed Moses and later Aaron and his sons and the "first Sanhedrin" and allowed them to come up the mount at various times to deliver the Law, but the nation itself was still unclean.

Hebrews 12:18-24 - As Christians we are "come to" a mount - a holy mount, just as the children of Israel were camped at. What kind of "pastor" would want to put up "boundaries" around the "holy mount" today? It's madness!

Bible illiteracy among Oneness Pentecostal preachers exists at terrible levels. Simple hermeneutics and the understanding of types and anti-types escapes these guys like water in a sieve.

To answer Justin's question about the trumpet and etc. (I think) - Exodus 19:21, tells us that God sent Moses back down the Mount to make certain no one "broke through" the barriers. So, if this is what you are referring to, then no; it does not appear that anyone did cross that boundary.

Again, this boundary was to keep the people away from God because they were still not considered ritually "clean." The cleansing that they were to receive was within the Law itself - and even then, that failed to make them perfect (Hebrews 9:9-10). Foreseeing this, God sent forth His Son, made of a woman, made under the Law, in the fullness of time (Galatians 4:4; Hebrews 9:11-15).

God Himself came to us, boundary or no boundary.

[pelathais]

Originally Posted by jagwinn

Bro,
Do not look at boundries as restrictive to you. Instead, boundries are to keep the world out!
If you ask God to lead you, and he directs you to a church with a man of God (who is there, by the way, by the direct placement from God) and then you cannot obey the man God has chosen for you, then how can you obey without hesitation any word from God?

This approach requires us to apply Deuteronomy 18:21-22, to determine if God really has "placed" that particular man "there." We would also have to overlook the numerous NT Scriptures that clearly indicate that the local church was not under the authority of a single "preacher" - but the churches in the Bible had "elders" - "presbyters" (from the Greek "presbuteros").

What you seem to be describing doesn't appear to be the way the Apostolic church was organized.

Originally Posted by jagwinn

Do you not feel that the man God has placed in the pulpit is hearing God? Trust me on this point..God will direct a church through the man he places as the pastor.

Saul lost his future kingdom, and the kingdom of his children, because he could not/would not obey the man of God [Samuel]. Saul thought he had a better idea than who God was using.

1Sa 15:22 And Samuel said, Hath the LORD [as great] delight in burnt offerings and sacrifices, as in obeying the voice of the LORD? Behold, to obey [is] better than sacrifice, [and] to hearken than the fat of rams.


1Sa 15:23 For rebellion [is as] the sin of witchcraft, and stubbornness [is as] iniquity and idolatry. Because thou hast rejected the word of the LORD, he hath also rejected thee from [being] king.

The selfishness of the world; lust of the eye, lust of the flesh and the pride of life, is what is dissolving the true walk with God today..

You sure got that last part right, Bro. Men going into a town and setting themselves up as "God's own anointed" without giving any thought to the pattern of the Apostolic church - and all so that they can greedily harvest the "tithes" from people who won't read their own Bibles to see "if these things be so."

How many times have I seen a self appointed and self anointed "man of god" fail the Deuteronomy 18, test? When you point it out to them and beg them to repent and turn their lives over to the Lord Jesus Christ they just stand there - slack jawed.

"You talk to us like we were sinners..." one preacher and his wife complained to me. Duh!

[Justin]

Originally Posted by pelathais

You are correct. Those that want to use this to support the nonsense of "a pastor" setting extra-Biblical standards are upside down. So many of our preachers do everything backward from a Biblical perspective.

The "boundaries" in Exodus 19, are set specifically to keep people away from God - NOT to keep them close to God!

The Law was on the mount. The Law was to be the instrument that would make a way for the people to be brought to God. At the time the Law was being given the people were unclean and could not come up the Mount. God cleansed Moses and later Aaron and his sons and the "first Sanhedrin" and allowed them to come up the mount at various times to deliver the Law, but the nation itself was still unclean.

Hebrews 12:18-24 - As Christians we are "come to" a mount - a holy mount, just as the children of Israel were camped at. What kind of "pastor" would want to put up "boundaries" around the "holy mount" today? It's madness!

Bible illiteracy among Oneness Pentecostal preachers exists at terrible levels. Simple hermeneutics and the understanding of types and anti-types escapes these guys like water in a sieve.

To answer Justin's question about the trumpet and etc. (I think) - Exodus 19:21, tells us that God sent Moses back down the Mount to make certain no one "broke through" the barriers. So, if this is what you are referring to, then no; it does not appear that anyone did cross that boundary.

Again, this boundary was to keep the people away from God because they were still not considered ritually "clean." The cleansing that they were to receive was within the Law itself - and even then, that failed to make them perfect (Hebrews 9:9-10). Foreseeing this, God sent forth His Son, made of a woman, made under the Law, in the fullness of time (Galatians 4:4; Hebrews 9:11-15).

God Himself came to us, boundary or no boundary.

I don't get why God told them they had to stay away from the mountain until the horn blew. And when the horn blew, they went to the foot of the mountain...?

[The Lemon]

No offence to anyone, but in the REAL world, not everyone that has a position actually is called or qualified to be there. Of course there are God appointed positions of authority, and naturally this is Biblical, but to say that everyone that chirps is a bird is ridiculous.

If that were the case than I suppose Jim Jones was "appointed by God" to give the flavor aid to his "flock". Jesus' very name was described as "God with us", and thank Him for that! The bible is the measuring stick, we need to study to see if "These things be so", unfortunately, and sadly, this rarely happens. Most folks just adopt and conform with little or no understanding.

[pelathais]

Originally Posted by Justin

I don't get why God told them they had to stay away from the mountain until the horn blew. And when the horn blew, they went to the foot of the mountain...?

There are probably a number of ways to look at these events in Exodus 19. What I see, just on the surface level, is: God commands the "separation" between the Mount and the people. Moses is the mediator who is allowed to move across the "barrier" and into both locales.

Moses "purifies" the people so that they may "see God" when He descends upon the Mount:

Exodus 19:14-16 "And Moses went down from the mount unto the people, and sanctified the people; and they washed their clothes.

And he said unto the people, Be ready against the third day: come not at your wives.

And it came to pass on the third day in the morning, that there were thunders and lightnings, and a thick cloud upon the mount, and the voice of the trumpet exceeding loud; so that all the people that was in the camp trembled."

The trumpet blast is heard, heralding the arrival and appearance of the God of Israel - but the people freak out. They don't even "test" the "barrier." They are close enough to see the awfulness of their sinful condition in contrast with the holy nature of God (Exodus 20:18-21).

The people confess that they cannot approach this God without their mediator, Moses (Exodus 20:19).

There appears to have been a condition that existed that prevented the people form safely approaching God on the Mount. Call it "fire" or "lightnings" or just "God's own holy nature" - whatever, the people could not stand closely in His presence without being destroyed. God seems to have known this all along, Moses suspected it, but now with this demonstration the people realize it for themselves. They need a mediator (Galatians 3:19-20).

[jagwinn]

Originally Posted by The Lemon

No offence to anyone, but in the REAL world, not everyone that has a position actually is called or qualified to be there. Of course there are God appointed positions of authority, and naturally this is Biblical, but to say that everyone that chirps is a bird is ridiculous.

If that were the case than I suppose Jim Jones was "appointed by God" to give the flavor aid to his "flock". Jesus' very name was described as "God with us", and thank Him for that! The bible is the measuring stick, we need to study to see if "These things be so", unfortunately, and sadly, this rarely happens. Most folks just adopt and conform with little or no understanding.

No offence taken, Brother. Jesus warned that being offended is not the character He is developing in us [me].
I believe that unto Jesus is "given all power in heaven and earth", in that I can be confident that whomever I am placed under that my obeying will be counted as righteousness.
Confident, also, that God is a jealous God and He is jealous toward me! and will not let me be led astray, for I am in his hand and no man can take me out of it!
I do want to say that Jesus in many of his illustrations was adamant about how you did with what he gave you and your response was what he judges. Meaning, that if you continue to do your best to follow him, and you do not sit around and question why this? and why that? but just continue faithfuly and in obedience, then you have defeated offence.
"if you are faithful over little, I will make you ruler over much".
What more can I say to be more explicite? I know already that we cannot know exactly the spirit and context of our postings, but I hope that the basic seed was identified.
That being obey! grow where you are planted, regardless of the weather!!

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