just in need of some different opinions and advice

[192281]

Hello All.
Im know it’s funny that Im coming to a Forum to get advice. Believe me I have already had counsel with a few elders of my church and also a mentor of mine. Im just coming to get some opinions from people who do not personally know me and have no bias.

I have been in the UPC for about 10 years and have had a great 10 years. I feel my church has taught me many amazing things. In the last 3 years I have questioned a lot of the standards that are required in order to be a member or in leadership of the church and some things many of my church family consider to be heaven/hell issues.

I have studied scripture for the past two years and have prayed and fasted over the questions I have had and know exactly where I stand on what we as UPC consider "Holiness Standards". I respect those who have personal convictions about hair, makeup, and pants, short, beards...and whatever else you can think of but I dont see them as heaven or hell issues. I didnt come to this out of rebellion or anger..As a MAN the standards really dont apply as much to me so there isn’t much for me to get rebellious about. : )

I started questioning things because I just couldn’t see it in scripture and I couldn’t imagine asking my future wife(now married) or daughters (if I ever have them) to do these things. My problem is that I attend a UPC church and I am in leadership so I feel it’s important to do as my church ask, However, I dont really want to represent what they require anymore. I dont want to ask visitors to come and tell them there is no need to change what they wear but then in 4 months they want to sing my pastor tells them NO because they are wearing pants(women) or has a beard (man). I also knwo we say let them get it for themselves but I also am aware (because I was there) that if a change hasnt taken place in a few months we start to wonder if they even got the HG. Im tired of people praying people to salvation just because they see cut hair. I feel like a hypocrite asking people to hold up to certain standards but then a law that was written one line down we completely ignore...It’s hard for me to thigns like:

Wearing pants to bed and to the gym but we say its a sin so dont put them on to go to nordstroms...are you serious!!! SIN IS SIN..in the house or in the public.

So the question:
My wife and I both completely agree and are on the same level but she doesn’t want to leave because it’s what she knows and has always done. She is scared her family will be angry and she is scared to leave tradition. Like I told her even if we leave she can 100% hold every "holiness standard" she always has but this will give us the opportunity to be honest with people and up front with what we believe and it correlate with our pastor. We are at a crossroads..I want to look for a different church and she doesn’t due to tradition. As a man and husband what do I do? I have stayed for a year and want to make my wife happy but it’s hard on me. If she said I 100% think these are heaven/hell issues then I might even respect us staying there a bit more but if the church preaches what we dont believe then I dont understand...

Anyone been here before that can give some unbiased advice.

Thanks.

[*AQuietPlace*]

Many of us here are either in the exact same place you are in, or have been in that place in the past.

There is no easy answer to this question. All that you can do is pray for God to give you clear direction. Pray for God to either give you peace to stay where you are, or to continue troubling your spirit until you know clearly that it's time to leave. Pray for God to give your wife peace in this area, too.

There really is no easy answer. I wish there was.

[Digging4Truth]

This is the reason they need to drop their continual persistence that the OT scripture about wearing "that which pertaineth to a man" is any of the basis for this standard.

If that is the reasoning then they need to get real with it. Pajamas are just as much a sin as blue jeans on the platform. If it pertains to a man it pertains to a man day & night, inside & outside, winter or summer.

This kind of wavering and nonsensical application of scripture is what confuses people and causes them to lose faith on a number of levels.

If we are going to teach it then let us teach it from a modesty standpoint. I do believe that for a woman to wear a skirt is, generally, more modest than pants but then there are those who must certainly need axle grease to get those skirts on and they have missed the point entirely... and... they have sinned. They walk in their own professed wisdom and have made themselves fools.

We must dress modestly and present ourselves in a modest fashion.

We must teach things we can stand on and not build our houses on sinking sand or else we make ourselves and, by extension, our very God look like a fool.

[n david]

Originally Posted by 192281

Hello All.
Im know it’s funny that Im coming to a Forum to get advice. Believe me I have already had counsel with a few elders of my church and also a mentor of mine. Im just coming to get some opinions from people who do not personally know me and have no bias.

I have been in the UPC for about 10 years and have had a great 10 years. I feel my church has taught me many amazing things. In the last 3 years I have questioned a lot of the standards that are required in order to be a member or in leadership of the church and some things many of my church family consider to be heaven/hell issues.

Sorry to throw a wet blanket on your quest ... but this forum, or any other, is the last place you should seek advice about the above. Especially regarding the bolded part.

If you don't agree with the standards your church leadership has set for church leaders, then the answer is simply to speak with your pastor or church board and either work to change, conform to, or simply don't become a leader in the church. If you don't agree with what's required to simply be a member of the church, then you should again, either work to change membership standards by speaking with your pastor or church board or simply find another church.

The forum's opinion on standards are heavily tilted and biased against outward standards ... though there are a few who disagree with the majority.

My opinions about standards are simply that...my opinions. Personally I don't agree with outward standards as being a heaven/hell issue, but don't take my opinion for yourself, study and pray about it. Others opinions are theirs as well and shouldn't be applied to your situation.

Any unbiased, good advice given would be to talk with your pastor or church board.

[192281]

Originally Posted by n david

Sorry to throw a wet blanket on your quest ... but this forum, or any other, is the last place you should seek advice about the above. Especially regarding the bolded part.

If you don't agree with the standards your church leadership has set for church leaders, then the answer is simply to speak with your pastor or church board and either work to change, conform to, or simply don't become a leader in the church. If you don't agree with what's required to simply be a member of the church, then you should again, either work to change membership standards by speaking with your pastor or church board or simply find another church.

The forum's opinion on standards are heavily tilted and biased against outward standards ... though there are a few who disagree with the majority.

My opinions about standards are simply that...my opinions. Personally I don't agree with outward standards as being a heaven/hell issue, but don't take my opinion for yourself, study and pray about it. Others opinions are theirs as well and shouldn't be applied to your situation.

Any unbiased, good advice given would be to talk with your pastor or church board.

Guess you misunderstood my questions. I wasnt asking about standards, I stated my beliefs on standards. My questions were concerning what I should do since my wife doesnt want to leave. Any advice from people who have been in the same boat?

[missourimary]

Pray about it; pray that God gives her release to go or gives you peace to stay-give Him the choice in the matter... And trust that He will provide the answer.

[*AQuietPlace*]

Originally Posted by n david

Sorry to throw a wet blanket on your quest ... but this forum, or any other, is the last place you should seek advice about the above. Especially regarding the bolded part.

I really disagree with this. People in the poster's situation can feel, and truly be, extremely isolated in their "real life". Do you honestly feel that most church leadership is going to be understanding of his questions? In a perfect world, yes, but in 'real life' it's usually not possible to truly have an unbiased discussion about these issues with your church leadership.

Battles like this very often have to be fought inside your own heart and head. You usually have to come to these decisions on your own, with much prayer, of course. And forums like these can be a great benefit as a sounding board.

It has been an INCREDIBLE benefit to me to know that I'm not the only one who faced these questions. And hearing other people's stories, hearing how they dealt with their own personal situations has been a great help, too.

That's just my perspective.

[192281]

Originally Posted by *aquietplace*

i really disagree with this. People in the poster's situation can feel, and truly be, extremely isolated in their "real life". Do you honestly feel that most church leadership is going to be understanding of his questions? In a perfect world, yes, but in 'real life' it's usually not possible to truly have an unbiased discussion about these issues with your church leadership.

Battles like this very often have to be fought inside your own heart and head. You usually have to come to these decisions on your own, with much prayer, of course. And forums like these can be a great benefit as a sounding board.

It has been an incredible benefit to me to know that i'm not the only one who faced these questions. And hearing other people's stories, hearing how they dealt with their own personal situations has been a great help, too.

That's just my perspective.

thank you!

[Margies3]

Originally Posted by n david

Sorry to throw a wet blanket on your quest ... but this forum, or any other, is the last place you should seek advice about the above. Especially regarding the bolded part.
I disagree. Where else could this gentleman go to ask this kind of question? To his pastor? Let's be honest. If he did that, he might as well forget about being put in positions where he can be used in any capacity within the church (at least in many churches. Not all. But many) If he goes to friends within the church then he is "stirring up trouble." I'm willing to bet that he and his wife have already had many discussions about this. So who else does that leave for him to go to?


If you don't agree with the standards your church leadership has set for church leaders, then the answer is simply to speak with your pastor or church board and either work to change, conform to, or simply don't become a leader in the church. If you don't agree with what's required to simply be a member of the church, then you should again, either work to change membership standards by speaking with your pastor or church board or simply find another church.
Wait! He shouldn't come here looking for advice or input, but you are still free to give it anyway?


The forum's opinion on standards are heavily tilted and biased against outward standards ... though there are a few who disagree with the majority.

My opinions about standards are simply that...my opinions. Personally I don't agree with outward standards as being a heaven/hell issue, but don't take my opinion for yourself, study and pray about it. Others opinions are theirs as well and shouldn't be applied to your situation.

Any unbiased, good advice given would be to talk with your pastor or church board.

A Quiet Place, you gave some good input.

[n david]

Originally Posted by *AQuietPlace*

I really disagree with this. People in the poster's situation can feel, and truly be, extremely isolated in their "real life". Do you honestly feel that most church leadership is going to be understanding of his questions? In a perfect world, yes, but in 'real life' it's usually not possible to truly have an unbiased discussion about these issues with your church leadership.

Battles like this very often have to be fought inside your own heart and head. You usually have to come to these decisions on your own, with much prayer, of course. And forums like these can be a great benefit as a sounding board.

It has been an INCREDIBLE benefit to me to know that I'm not the only one who faced these questions. And hearing other people's stories, hearing how they dealt with their own personal situations has been a great help, too.

That's just my perspective.

Originally Posted by *AQuietPlace*

I really disagree with this. People in the poster's situation can feel, and truly be, extremely isolated in their "real life". Do you honestly feel that most church leadership is going to be understanding of his questions? In a perfect world, yes, but in 'real life' it's usually not possible to truly have an unbiased discussion about these issues with your church leadership.

Battles like this very often have to be fought inside your own heart and head. You usually have to come to these decisions on your own, with much prayer, of course. And forums like these can be a great benefit as a sounding board.

It has been an INCREDIBLE benefit to me to know that I'm not the only one who faced these questions. And hearing other people's stories, hearing how they dealt with their own personal situations has been a great help, too.

That's just my perspective.

I misread the actual question, but in regards with dealing with leadership or membership standards ... it really doesn't matter anyone's opinion as to what they should/shouldn't be. Coming to a forum to ask questions about this will only cause more questions and division between the individual and church leadership. If in disagreement, the only solution is either to work with them to change or find another place.

Again, I do see that wasn't the question posed, though the question posed has no easy solution either.

If your wife is not willing to leave, for whatever reason, then you're in a tough spot. I haven't personally experienced this, but I've had close friends in this situation.

One guy I knew wanted to leave for a new church, his wife wanted to remain with family and friends. It was a church she grew up in and didn't want to leave. At first he tried pushing and pulling her to leave, which caused a lot of stress and friction. Finally, he decided that though he didn't agree, he would keep the family happy and together and stay instead of leaving.

You may find others who have been in a similar situation, and can share how they made their decision. The decision will be found with prayer and made between you and your wife.