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  #1  
Old 12-12-2009, 11:09 AM
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MikeinAR MikeinAR is offline
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Sounds like we already have "death panels"

in place in our current healthcare system. I wonder if Palin, and the others who have tried scare tactics to defeat healthcare reform will help this guy find an answer.

http://www.tampabay.com/opinion/colu...-death/1057329

"I don't understand people who fear government bureaucrats — who have no profit motive and ultimately must answer to the people — yet feel fully at ease with corporate bureaucrats whose sole interest is the bottom line and answer only to shareholders."
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Last edited by MikeinAR; 12-12-2009 at 11:12 AM.
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  #2  
Old 12-20-2009, 04:29 PM
deacon blues deacon blues is offline
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Re: Sounds like we already have "death panels"

Quote:
Originally Posted by MikeinAr
"I don't understand people who fear government bureaucrats — who have no profit motive and ultimately must answer to the people — yet feel fully at ease with corporate bureaucrats whose sole interest is the bottom line and answer only to shareholders."
This is easy. Bureaucrats have no incentive for quality and excellence in their labor. Do they really answer to the people? How many bureaucrats answer to you? How many can you fire? How many can you evaluate?

Capitalism isn't perfect but its the best system in history because ultimately the business owner has the incentive that if his customers are unhappy, they will essentially "fire" him by pulling their money and moving it to a rival company who is doing a better job at providing better quality service and products.

The failure of communism and socialism over the past 100 years is proof that free market principles produce the best service, products and overall lifestyle. The problem with our current system is not enough govt intervention, its too much. Why can't the healthcare insurance companies operate like the auto & life insurance companies? You don't hear an outcry for auto insurance or life insurance reform! Why? Because it is a wide open conmpetition for business. Not so with health insurance. Too many govt restrictions! 1700 insurance companies offer healthcare insurance but every state has restrictions on who can select per state? Why? I don't know but I would suspect some way government has more power, influence and financial benefit by doing it this way. Life the restrictions and you'll see health insurance rates fall faster than a fat man down a flight of stairs.

Would you work for free Mike? The incentive of making money motivates you to go to work, be on time, do your job well and seek to be rewarded for the quality and quantity of your labor. That's what companies try to do too. Are their bad ones out there? Sure. But just like the guy who cuts corners, cheats, or does poor work will get fired, so too will the companies that place profit over people.

Less govt intervention and more freedom in the market! It works everytime!
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‎When a newspaper posed the question, "What's Wrong with the World?" G. K. Chesterton reputedly wrote a brief letter in response: "Dear Sirs: I am. Sincerely Yours, G. K. Chesterton." That is the attitude of someone who has grasped the message of Jesus.
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  #3  
Old 12-20-2009, 06:42 PM
Monterrey Monterrey is offline
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Re: Sounds like we already have "death panels"

Quote:
Originally Posted by deacon blues View Post
This is easy. Bureaucrats have no incentive for quality and excellence in their labor. Do they really answer to the people? How many bureaucrats answer to you? How many can you fire? How many can you evaluate?

Capitalism isn't perfect but its the best system in history because ultimately the business owner has the incentive that if his customers are unhappy, they will essentially "fire" him by pulling their money and moving it to a rival company who is doing a better job at providing better quality service and products.

The failure of communism and socialism over the past 100 years is proof that free market principles produce the best service, products and overall lifestyle. The problem with our current system is not enough govt intervention, its too much. Why can't the healthcare insurance companies operate like the auto & life insurance companies? You don't hear an outcry for auto insurance or life insurance reform! Why? Because it is a wide open conmpetition for business. Not so with health insurance. Too many govt restrictions! 1700 insurance companies offer healthcare insurance but every state has restrictions on who can select per state? Why? I don't know but I would suspect some way government has more power, influence and financial benefit by doing it this way. Life the restrictions and you'll see health insurance rates fall faster than a fat man down a flight of stairs.

Would you work for free Mike? The incentive of making money motivates you to go to work, be on time, do your job well and seek to be rewarded for the quality and quantity of your labor. That's what companies try to do too. Are their bad ones out there? Sure. But just like the guy who cuts corners, cheats, or does poor work will get fired, so too will the companies that place profit over people.

Less govt intervention and more freedom in the market! It works everytime!
Ditto!

Socialism has ALWAYS failed in the long run.
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  #4  
Old 12-20-2009, 09:16 PM
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MikeinAR MikeinAR is offline
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Re: Sounds like we already have "death panels"

Quote:
Originally Posted by deacon blues View Post
Less govt intervention and more freedom in the market! It works everytime!
I guess that would all depend on what your definition of "works" is. Less regulation and "freedom in the market" always ushers in profitablility and economic success, until it runs haywire and causes the worst financial crisis since the Great Depression.

Insurance companies doing as they please on the free market without gov't regulation has caused the mess that our healthcare system is today. You free market at all costs folks need to look out from under the rock everyonce in a while.
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  #5  
Old 12-20-2009, 09:17 PM
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SOUNWORTHY SOUNWORTHY is offline
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Re: Sounds like we already have "death panels"

Quote:
Originally Posted by Monterrey View Post
Ditto!

Socialism has ALWAYS failed in the long run.
Double Ditto!!
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  #6  
Old 12-21-2009, 07:27 AM
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ChTatum ChTatum is offline
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Re: Sounds like we already have "death panels"

This is not the worst crisis since the great depression. Check your history, it was worse under Carter. But if we keep going down this road, it will be worse.
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  #7  
Old 12-21-2009, 08:45 AM
deacon blues deacon blues is offline
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Re: Sounds like we already have "death panels"

Quote:
Originally Posted by MikeinAR
I guess that would all depend on what your definition of "works" is. Less regulation and "freedom in the market" always ushers in profitablility and economic success, until it runs haywire and causes the worst financial crisis since the Great Depression. Insurance companies doing as they please on the free market without gov't regulation has caused the mess that our healthcare system is today. You free market at all costs folks need to look out from under the rock everyonce in a while.
Mike, you know full well that what caused this house of cards was the housing market bubble that burst. The bubble was fueled by the GOVERNMENT'S insistence that banks lend money to unworthy customers.

The beauty of free markets is that if you get too greedy, for power or money, the market will punish you. This terrible economy is a good lesson that government meddling in the banking industry, housing market, fill in the blank only complicates and frustrates the market.

But your previous point that the motivation of companies to make a profit is what is wrong with liberals and the Democrats. You act as though if someone makes money its inherently evil. You say a bureaucrat does better work and can be trusted because they aren't jaded by greed. Have you gone to the BUREAU of Motor Vehicles lately? Do those bureaucrats serve you well? How did you like the 2 hour wait? The BEST products, service, inventions, innovations and advances have ALWAYS come from the strength of private industry, not government intervention.
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‎When a newspaper posed the question, "What's Wrong with the World?" G. K. Chesterton reputedly wrote a brief letter in response: "Dear Sirs: I am. Sincerely Yours, G. K. Chesterton." That is the attitude of someone who has grasped the message of Jesus.
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  #8  
Old 12-21-2009, 09:45 PM
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MikeinAR MikeinAR is offline
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Re: Sounds like we already have "death panels"

Quote:
Originally Posted by deacon blues View Post
Mike, you know full well that what caused this house of cards was the housing market bubble that burst. The bubble was fueled by the GOVERNMENT'S insistence that banks lend money to unworthy customers.

The beauty of free markets is that if you get too greedy, for power or money, the market will punish you. This terrible economy is a good lesson that government meddling in the banking industry, housing market, fill in the blank only complicates and frustrates the market.

But your previous point that the motivation of companies to make a profit is what is wrong with liberals and the Democrats. You act as though if someone makes money its inherently evil. You say a bureaucrat does better work and can be trusted because they aren't jaded by greed. Have you gone to the BUREAU of Motor Vehicles lately? Do those bureaucrats serve you well? How did you like the 2 hour wait? The BEST products, service, inventions, innovations and advances have ALWAYS come from the strength of private industry, not government intervention.

So just to be clear and to refocus on the specifics of the topic at hand, what are you suggesting for the gentleman with diabetes who no insurance company will insure due to his pre-existing conditions and the fact that he's too expensive to keep alive?

Your stating that private insurance companies can be trusted to provide adequate healthcare coverage and there's no need for any gov't regulation of the industry, so what happens when they don't? What's your suggestions Deacon?
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My Countdown Counting down to: My daughter's 5th Birthday!!
Happy Birthday Callie!!
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  #9  
Old 12-22-2009, 05:13 AM
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Esther Esther is offline
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Re: Sounds like we already have "death panels"

Quote:
Originally Posted by MikeinAR View Post
So just to be clear and to refocus on the specifics of the topic at hand, what are you suggesting for the gentleman with diabetes who no insurance company will insure due to his pre-existing conditions and the fact that he's too expensive to keep alive?

Your stating that private insurance companies can be trusted to provide adequate healthcare coverage and there's no need for any gov't regulation of the industry, so what happens when they don't? What's your suggestions Deacon?
Have you not heard the new plan will penalize those that "cause" their bad health from being overweight, etc?

Have you not heard the new plan should be called "Rationed Care"? You will hear more of this not less.

The seniors are told to get ready to hear the word "NO" a lot. No you can't have that surgery, no you can't have that medicine, no you can't go to the doctor.

You have your head stuck in the sand if you truly believe the government healthcare plan is a better plan.

It will cost you double or more than what you are paying now. And I understand this plan is uncontitutional. Who ever heard of a government demanding people to buy a product?

If you don't have money how do you propose the people pay a stiffer fine?
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  #10  
Old 12-22-2009, 05:17 AM
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Esther Esther is offline
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Re: Sounds like we already have "death panels"

Quote:
Originally Posted by MikeinAR View Post
I guess that would all depend on what your definition of "works" is. Less regulation and "freedom in the market" always ushers in profitablility and economic success, until it runs haywire and causes the worst financial crisis since the Great Depression.

Insurance companies doing as they please on the free market without gov't regulation has caused the mess that our healthcare system is today. You free market at all costs folks need to look out from under the rock everyonce in a while.
You need to dig a little deeper. The government regulations is what has caused a lot of the problems we have now.

If the healthcare was allowed to be more competitive across the states like auto insurance and Life, we would not be facing some of these problems.

I agree our healthcare needs to be revised but not the direction it is going. As to the insurance companies making a profit, I failed to see why you have a problem with that. An unreasonable profit I can agree with, but they are a business and if they don't make a profit they could not stay in business.

Look at the energy companies profit margin, now that is real concern but seems to escape notice.
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