I was recently told by a lock-step member of the local UPC that the ONLY person who is charged/responsible/called, etc. to talk/explain/discuss standards is the pastor. I asked him what was wrong with wearing shorts, and he jumped on me using this answer and especially...especially...did I mention especially with regard to new converts!!
The local UPC here has a series of groups that have church in the home every other Wed night. The large church is divided up into groups around the city and each group comprises 5-6 familes or less. They have a lesson prepared by the pastor, music, and even offering.
Anyway, this dude told me that the leaders (hand picked by the pastor) have been admonished that under no circumstances are they to discuss standards.
Now I am wondering, new folks are to be brought into the church, assimilated, THEN preached to or exposed to standards, or WHAT? I remember when we got into the UPC, they sprung them on us as a matter of...well, you have friends here, you are part of our church, you are one of us...but um...we don't do that.
Reminds me of how the Catholic church would not let their members read the Bible and only the ones in charge could properly interpret and teach it.
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Be content with what you have, for God has said, "Never will I leave you; never will I forsake you." So say with confidence, "The Lord is my helper; I will not be afraid." Hebrews 13:5,6
Love is patient, love is kind, Love does not insist on its own way. Love bears all things, believes all things,
Hopes all things, endures all things. Love never fails.
- I Corinthians 13:4-8
I've seen that style of "cell" group before. It's totally orchestrated by the pastor; the discussion topic, songs etc.
So much for an open Bible discussion.
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"Le sens commun n'est pas si commun."
(Common sense is not so common.)
Voltaire
Common sense is genius dressed in working clothes.
Ralph Waldo Emerson
Common sense and a sense of humor are the same thing, moving at different speeds. A sense of humor is just common sense, dancing.
William James
Who's job is it?
All of us whom God enables (Who have the skill) should teach what is in the Bible. Practical applications can be taught alongside scripture IMO as well.
As far as standards go, just adhere to the Bible and anyone can teach that. But for the sake of unity they should 'all speak the same thing'-as in they should all stick with scripture and not run down another group or teaching within their church or have holiness contests going on.
Offerings at house meetings? Pastor approved bible studies? Yikes!
The examples of how the OP churches have never really shaken off the catholic idea of priests and vicars.
We went nuts about shaking off what we perceived as false doctrines on God, but never looked at how perverse they had made the doctrine of church leadership. Sad really. Now we have a culture of control where even asking questions on the authority a Pastor should have get syou labelled a rebel.
I think in the interest of self preservation, the groups are shaken up once in a while if they get too big, and really, free thought is kind of discouraged because NO one wants any of these groups to turn into a little church.
While I think the church took a huge risk to avoid this, they put measures in place from allowing it to happen...God forbid we do things like they did in the biblical days...
"The bretheren after the disciples followed, chose to build monumental tabernacles like that of the days of Solomon, with majestic pillars, marble platforms, and as many rooms as in the city of Isreal, all that will serve the masses and for this cause, men, women and children will be compelled to travel great distances past the homes and sepulchers of their bretheren and childhood to convene in the castle tabernacle."
II Phillip 3:3
Sometimes pastors may make a rule like this to protect new converts from overzealous saints who think it is their mission to dress everyone right.
There is nothing more appalling than for someone who is just beginning a relationship with the Lord to be bombarded by well meaning but deluded people trying to "line them up".
I don't mean this in a spring it on them later way either. I think if people are allowed space to grow and taught scriptural principles they will get to a place where they make changes without much prodding at all.
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Last edited by John Atkinson; 09-25-2009 at 10:38 AM.
Sometimes pastors may make a rule like this to protect new converts from overzealous saints who think it is their mission to dress everyone right.
There is nothing more appealing than for someone who is just beginning a relationship with the Lord to be bombarded by well meaning but deluded people trying to "line them up".
I don't mean this in a spring it on them later way either. I think if people are allowed space to grow and taught scriptural principles they will get to a place where they make changes without much prodding at all.
Great post John, I agree completely in a general sense of Christian conduct. I am just becoming more and more suspicious of the concept of apostolic standards, how they are vetted and taught and the deception behind their true meaning and intent.
Great post John, I agree completely in a general sense of Christian conduct. I am just becoming more and more suspicious of the concept of apostolic standards, how they are vetted and taught and the deception behind their true meaning and intent.
I agree with you and concur. They are too easily used as a control mechanism. It isn't always about modesty and separation, those are just buzzwords used by some to mask a plain and simple desire to control, bending people to the will of the pastor rather than the will of God. As though the two were one and the same.
I kinda think God hates that.
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Last edited by John Atkinson; 09-25-2009 at 10:38 AM.
Re: Who's Job is it???!!!
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