Godhead - Line upon Line

[rwdeese]

Although some of you will not understand this approach to Scripture, this is not designed to be a debate. If it ends up going that way, my plan will be just to discuss this topic with a few people through PMs.

Here is my goal. Over the years I have studied the writings of Arians, Unitarians, Oneness and Trinitarians concerning the Godhead. The reason I studied their writings was because we all have a tendency to think we know what the other groups views truly are - quite frankly, most the time we do not. So, what I am proposing is that we attempt to look at Scripture as objectively as possible (which will be very hard for some because you think you are so right), to discover what the author's original intent was concerning his concept of God. Let us pretend, if you will, that we know nothing about God and we are on a journey. We will begin with Genesis and hit the main concepts about God, verse by verse, to discover the unfolding revelation of God. If we do this with the right spirit, we will all learn a great deal from it. Let us endeavor to allow the Word of God to be the final authority. BTW, so that you know, and although some will think this anyway, I do not have an agenda to prove any specific view. This is something I have desired to do for a few years, and I am hoping I found the right forum to do it in.

In order to keep this from getting to out of hand, I will control when we go to the next verse/passage to discuss. I am hoping to learn, and I hope you do to. In my next post I will give the first passage for us to discuss.

Blessings to all

[rwdeese]

Genesis 1:1: In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.

Ok, let us examine what Scripture truly means by "Elohim", the Hebrew word for God here.

Elohim is the plural of Eloah. Trinitarians teach that this proves that God is plural. Arians, Unitarians and Oneness teach that this does not prove any such thing. In fact, Elohim is used for angels, Moses and false gods. So, let's discuss Elohim and do our best to objectively study this word.

[rwdeese]

Originally Posted by rwdeese

Genesis 1:1: In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.

Ok, let us examine what Scripture truly means by "Elohim", the Hebrew word for God here.

Elohim is the plural of Eloah. Trinitarians teach that this proves that God is plural. Arians, Unitarians and Oneness teach that this does not prove any such thing. In fact, Elohim is used for angels, Moses and false gods. So, let's discuss Elohim and do our best to objectively study this word.

Gesenius, Hebrew Language Grammarian, states:

“That the language has entirely rejected the idea of numerical plurality in Elohim (whenever it denotes one God) is proved especially by its being almost invariably joined with a singular attribute.”

E. Kautzsch, ed., Gesenius’ Hebrew Grammar (Clarendon Press, Oxford, 1910), p. 399.

In fact, he calls it a plural of majesty or rank, or of abstraction, or of magnitude (Gesenius, Grammatik, 27th ed., nn. 124 g, 132 h). This seems to indicate that the plural form of Eloah was used more for intensification or amplification.

[mizpeh]

Originally Posted by rwdeese

Gesenius, Hebrew Language Grammarian, states:



In fact, he calls it a plural of majesty or rank, or of abstraction, or of magnitude (Gesenius, Grammatik, 27th ed., nn. 124 g, 132 h). This seems to indicate that the plural form of Eloah was used more for intensification or amplification.

So how would this work in Gen 1:1? In the beginning, Elohim created the heavens and the earth?

Can we substitute Elohim in John 1:1 for the word, God? In the beginning was the Word. And the Word was with Elohim and the Word was Elohim?

This verse comes to mind when I think of the plurality of attributes of God. Sometimes there is placed more emphasis on one aspect of God but I suppose if the author wanted to emphasize the all encompassing greatness of God, he might use the word, Elohim, to get that point across.

Isa 11:2 And the spirit of the LORD shall rest upon him, the spirit of wisdom and understanding, the spirit of counsel and might, the spirit of knowledge and of the fear of the LORD;

[A.W. Bowman]

When I lost my computer and back up data earlier this year, I lost most of my translation material as well. The following is an attempt to reconstruct that original effort.

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The attached word document goes into a little more detail, but the bottom line translation of the three KJV passages that contain the term Godhead, should more appropriately be translated as follows (See the attached translation document for a greater detail of the process.):


Acts 17:29 Forasmuch then as we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Godhead [the one true God] is like unto gold, or silver, or stone, graven by art and man's device.

G2304 [Theios]
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Romans 1:20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead [the divine nature of God]; so that they are without excuse: (so…: or, that they may be)

G2305 [Theiotēs]
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Colossians 2:9 For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead [the state of being God, i.e. the essence of God’s deity expressed] bodily.

G2320 [Theotēs]
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What we have are three different Greek words signifying three different aspects of God’s deity all being translated into one English word that is not well defined. The term Godhead does not even exist in any original language text.

Can there be any god’s in deity? Not really. For if “deity” contained God, then the attributes of deity would be greater than God. The attributes, elements and composition of those things which express “deity” are contained within and defined by God, Himself, not the other way around. Therefore God contains His own deity; He is not contained within nor defined by any “external elements” (as comprehended by mankind).

Conclusion:

(1) There are no gods in the Godhead, not even one.

(2) All discussions based on the misunderstood and the misused term, are discussions based on one or more false premises and are without validly.

(3) The arguments are not really over “how many gods are there?”, but rather over how different people perceive God’s deity. And, there are no scriptural requirements for salvation based on knowing and understanding the elements, nature, and/or composition of God’s deity (Isaiah 40:28, Romans 11:33-36) beyond those expressly identified by Jesus and His Apostles. (Perhaps someone would care to list them here?)

Generally, the disagreements are over the baptismal formula and how it should be administrated, which is quite different from the number of Gods question.

Arguments arising from these mistranslations and interpretations of scripture have resulted in brothers and sisters judging each other harshly. So, rather than building up (edifying), encouraging and bringing unity to the body of Christ, we have been actively engaged in tearing it down and creating divisions – and that should never be!

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At any rate, I will be most interest in how this discussion develops, as it seems to be starting out more along the lines of: What is the composition of God and the possible role of that information might have in the salvation of man?

[Michael The Disciple]

The arguments are not really over “how many gods are there?”, but rather over how different people perceive God’s deity. And, there are no scriptural requirements for salvation based on knowing and understanding the elements, nature, and/or composition of God’s deity (Isaiah 40:28, Romans 11:33-36) beyond those expressly identified by Jesus and His Apostles.

Knowledge and Understanding:

23: Thus saith the LORD, Let not the wise man glory in his wisdom, neither let the mighty man glory in his might, let not the rich man glory in his riches:
24: But let him that glorieth glory in this, that he understandeth and knoweth me, that I am the LORD which exercise lovingkindness, judgment, and righteousness, in the earth: for in these things I delight, saith the LORD. Jeremiah 9:23-24

[rwdeese]

Originally Posted by mizpeh

So how would this work in Gen 1:1? In the beginning, Elohim created the heavens and the earth?

Can we substitute Elohim in John 1:1 for the word, God? In the beginning was the Word. And the Word was with Elohim and the Word was Elohim?

This verse comes to mind when I think of the plurality of attributes of God. Sometimes there is placed more emphasis on one aspect of God but I suppose if the author wanted to emphasize the all encompassing greatness of God, he might use the word, Elohim, to get that point across.

Isa 11:2 And the spirit of the LORD shall rest upon him, the spirit of wisdom and understanding, the spirit of counsel and might, the spirit of knowledge and of the fear of the LORD;

In the Sacred Name Bibles, The Scriptures 98 and Restored Name King James Version, the word "Elohim" is used where the word theos (θεος) is found in the Greek text (such as John 1:1 and John 10:36). The editors of these Bibles reason that since the Syriac word "ܐܠܗܐ" (Aloha, cognate with Hebrew Eloah) is found in the Peshitto texts where Old Testament passages are quoted contain "Elohim" in the original Hebrew, this is reason enough to change theos to Elohim. I would simply argue, however, that theos is not a plural noun, so it is not an exact equivalent. For that matter, the Syriac word Aloha is not plural either.

[rwdeese]

Hello HaShaliach,

I appreciate your post. However, the goal is to attempt to deal with the nature of God verse by verse. Presently we are discussing Elohim. I you hae some similar insights concerning Elohim, please share. Eventually, we will get to the New Testament words "Godhead." Just so you know, I am very aware of the mistranslation of "Godhead". The reason I chose that word was because it was controversial, in and of itself, yet, everyone knows we are talking about God.

[mizpeh]

Originally Posted by rwdeese

In the Sacred Name Bibles, The Scriptures 98 and Restored Name King James Version, the word "Elohim" is used where the word theos (θεος) is found in the Greek text (such as John 1:1 and John 10:36). The editors of these Bibles reason that since the Syriac word "ܐܠܗܐ" (Aloha, cognate with Hebrew Eloah) is found in the Peshitto texts where Old Testament passages are quoted contain "Elohim" in the original Hebrew, this is reason enough to change theos to Elohim. I would simply argue, however, that theos is not a plural noun, so it is not an exact equivalent. For that matter, the Syriac word Aloha is not plural either.

Would you have the same objections to using YHWH in place of Kurios in the verses used by NT authors which are evidently taken directly from the OT? (substituting a proper name for a title?)

[mizpeh]

I don't know Hebrew. Is the verb, created in Gen 1:1, singular or plural?