The Failing Examples of Pastoral Leadership

[1Corinth2v4]

This post is directed toward my conservative, moderate, and liberal brethren. Please read carefully and answer accordingly.


After reading a dialog between Praxeas and Growingpains, I've decided to add my input. I've encountered various situations where congregants were in desperate financial need, and were over-looked by their pastor. Folks, I'm not talking about brethren whom constantly seek financial assistance from the church, but I'm talking about folks whom have never sought financial assistance. I'm personally acquainted with a sister that was facing eviction from her apartment, and was denied financial assistance from her pastor. It surprises me that these very pastors will jump to a round of golf, hunting, and\or other recreational activities without hesitation, sadly while their congregants are financially needy.


I've encountered various excuses why some pastors are non-employed, and the most popular response being "what if a saint needs me while I'm at work?" Readers, please understand what I'm about to state. For this reason precisely saints are more dependent on their pastor than God. Don't misunderstand me, I believe every man/women needs a pastor, but the problem lies when the congregant dials their pastor's number before petitioning an omnipotent immutable God! Many saints have failed reaching new spiritual dimensions, all due to their pastor's pastoral-ship.


Undoubtedly, certain pastors enjoy pastoring congregants who possess a pastoral dependency mentality. Many pastors draw their security from these types of congregants, and in doing so, these pastors build themselves a cankered pedestal and transform themselves into dictators. Also, congregants with this mentality are rendered more susceptible to pastoral manipulation (e.g. do what I say and not what I do leadership). In regards to pastors and employment, Paul clearly expressed his opinion on the matter:


Acts 20:
33) I have never coveted anyone’s silver or gold or fine clothes.
34) You know that these hands of mine have worked to supply my own needs and even the needs of those who were with me.
35) And I have been a constant example..........


2 Thessalonians 3:
7) For you know that you ought to imitate us......
8) We never accepted food from anyone without paying for it. We worked hard day and night so we would not be a burden to any of you.
9) We certainly had the right to ask you to feed us, but we wanted to give you an example to follow.
10) Even while we were with you, we gave you this command: “Those unwilling to work will not get to eat.”


Whether our role is an apostle, prophet, evangelist, pastor and/or teacher, I find those callings a privilege rather than an occupation. Paul's calling was an apostle while his occupation was a tent builder. I understand evangelist travel from church to church, city to city preaching the gospel. However, Phillip (Acts 21:8) traveled city to city preaching the gospel as an itinerant preacher, preaching the gospel to non-evangelized or non-church existing locations. So why does the role of a current evangelist consist of traveling from church to church? Why does the role from an ACTS evangelist differ from our modern day evangelist role?

[berkeley]

Wow! Just.... WOW! Great thread!

[Stephanas]

Wow! Just.... WOW! What a colossal waste of bandwidth!

A disigenuous misrepresentation of Paul's teaching on support for the ministry.

1 Timothy 5:17-18 (AMP)

17 Let the elders who perform the duties of their office well be considered doubly worthy of honor [and of adequate financial support], especially those who labor faithfully in preaching and teaching.

18 For the Scripture says, You shall not muzzle an ox when it is treading out the grain, and again, The laborer is worthy of his hire. [Deut 25:4; Luke 10:7.]


Philippians 4:14-17 (NIV)
14 Yet it was good of you to share in my troubles. 15 Moreover, as you Philippians know, in the early days of your acquaintance with the gospel, when I set out from Macedonia, not one church shared with me in the matter of giving and receiving, except you only; 16 for even when I was in Thessalonica, you sent me aid again and again when I was in need. 17 Not that I am looking for a gift, but I am looking for what may be credited to your account.


While Paul chose not to exercise his right to support, he did emphatically contend that he had a right of support from those he ministered to:

1 Corinthians 9:3-16 (NLT)

3 This is my answer to those who question my authority. 4 Don't we have the right to live in your homes and share your meals? 5 Don't we have the right to bring a Christian wife with us as the other disciples and the Lord's brothers do, and as Peter does? 6 Or is it only Barnabas and I who have to work to support ourselves?

7 What soldier has to pay his own expenses? What farmer plants a vineyard and doesn't have the right to eat some of its fruit? What shepherd cares for a flock of sheep and isn't allowed to drink some of the milk? 8 Am I expressing merely a human opinion, or does the law say the same thing? 9 For the law of Moses says, "You must not muzzle an ox to keep it from eating as it treads out the grain." Was God thinking only about oxen when he said this? 10 Wasn't he actually speaking to us? Yes, it was written for us, so that the one who plows and the one who threshes the grain might both expect a share of the harvest.

11 Since we have planted spiritual seed among you, aren't we entitled to a harvest of physical food and drink? 12 If you support others who preach to you, shouldn't we have an even greater right to be supported? But we have never used this right. We would rather put up with anything than be an obstacle to the Good News about Christ.

13 Don't you realize that those who work in the temple get their meals from the offerings brought to the temple? And those who serve at the altar get a share of the sacrificial offerings. 14 In the same way, the Lord ordered that those who preach the Good News should be supported by those who benefit from it. 15 Yet I have never used any of these rights. And I am not writing this to suggest that I want to start now. In fact, I would rather die than lose my right to boast about preaching without charge.

[nahkoe]

Originally Posted by 1Corinth2v4

Whether our role is an apostle, prophet, evangelist, pastor and/or teacher, I find those callings a privilege rather than an occupation. Paul's calling was an apostle while his occupation was a tent builder. I understand evangelist travel from church to church, city to city preaching the gospel. However, Phillip (Acts 21:8) traveled city to city preaching the gospel as an itinerant preacher, preaching the gospel to non-evangelized or non-church existing locations. So why does the role of a current evangelist consist of traveling from church to church? Why does the role from an ACTS evangelist differ from our modern day evangelist role?

Because the church as it exists right now is just a feel good thing for already churched people.

[The Lemon]

Originally Posted by Stephanas

Wow! Just.... WOW! What a colossal waste of bandwidth!

A disigenuous misrepresentation of Paul's teaching on support for the ministry.

1 Timothy 5:17-18 (AMP)

17 Let the elders who perform the duties of their office well be considered doubly worthy of honor [and of adequate financial support], especially those who labor faithfully in preaching and teaching.

18 For the Scripture says, You shall not muzzle an ox when it is treading out the grain, and again, The laborer is worthy of his hire. [Deut 25:4; Luke 10:7.]


Philippians 4:14-17 (NIV)
14 Yet it was good of you to share in my troubles. 15 Moreover, as you Philippians know, in the early days of your acquaintance with the gospel, when I set out from Macedonia, not one church shared with me in the matter of giving and receiving, except you only; 16 for even when I was in Thessalonica, you sent me aid again and again when I was in need. 17 Not that I am looking for a gift, but I am looking for what may be credited to your account.


While Paul chose not to exercise his right to support, he did emphatically contend that he had a right of support from those he ministered to:

1 Corinthians 9:3-16 (NLT)

3 This is my answer to those who question my authority. 4 Don't we have the right to live in your homes and share your meals? 5 Don't we have the right to bring a Christian wife with us as the other disciples and the Lord's brothers do, and as Peter does? 6 Or is it only Barnabas and I who have to work to support ourselves?

7 What soldier has to pay his own expenses? What farmer plants a vineyard and doesn't have the right to eat some of its fruit? What shepherd cares for a flock of sheep and isn't allowed to drink some of the milk? 8 Am I expressing merely a human opinion, or does the law say the same thing? 9 For the law of Moses says, "You must not muzzle an ox to keep it from eating as it treads out the grain." Was God thinking only about oxen when he said this? 10 Wasn't he actually speaking to us? Yes, it was written for us, so that the one who plows and the one who threshes the grain might both expect a share of the harvest.

11 Since we have planted spiritual seed among you, aren't we entitled to a harvest of physical food and drink? 12 If you support others who preach to you, shouldn't we have an even greater right to be supported? But we have never used this right. We would rather put up with anything than be an obstacle to the Good News about Christ.

13 Don't you realize that those who work in the temple get their meals from the offerings brought to the temple? And those who serve at the altar get a share of the sacrificial offerings. 14 In the same way, the Lord ordered that those who preach the Good News should be supported by those who benefit from it. 15 Yet I have never used any of these rights. And I am not writing this to suggest that I want to start now. In fact, I would rather die than lose my right to boast about preaching without charge.

Well....let's start by examining what these scriptures DON'T say:

A. They do not say anything about MONEY
B. They do not say anything about TITHING

What they do is advocate some form of support to those who labor in the Gospel...I personally do not know ANYONE who is a true christian who would not want to help support the ministry.

Let's not forget verse 11 either, where Paul basically says he would rather "Put up with anything" then be an obsticle to the Good News"

Bottom line (Coming from a minister mind you); is that our AMERICANIZED way of "doing Church" is FAR different then in the Apostles day. With large buildings, expensive programs etc., etc., - they often do exactly the opposite of what Paul was talking about in this verse.

I don't think our brother on here was misrepresenting anything, nor did he say EVERY minister - I did not see any broad brushing going on here... it is a fact that not all pastors are choosen of the Good Shepherd - but are hirlings - that's not a stretch to say....it's a fact.

[*AQuietPlace*]

Concerning people who depend on the pastor... a lot of that is because of a person's personality. Some people just thrive on attention. They don't want to learn to depend upon God, they want the pastor patting their hand. As a pastor's kid, I've observed this so often. It's usually the same people always needing attention.

In all my years of church-going, I've only needed to "talk to the pastor" twice. Both situations were times when I needed outside mediation. I'm extremely independent, and running to someone else with my problems never occurs to me.

It's usually not that people don't learn to go to God with their problems, it's just that certain people have no intention of going to God first. They want attention right here on earth.

A pastor can stay very, very busy with genuine needs, though.

[TJJJ]

Originally Posted by 1Corinth2v4

This post is directed toward my conservative, moderate, and liberal brethren. Please read carefully and answer accordingly.


After reading a dialog between Praxeas and Growingpains, I've decided to add my input. I've encountered various situations where congregants were in desperate financial need, and were over-looked by their pastor. Folks, I'm not talking about brethren whom constantly seek financial assistance from the church, but I'm talking about folks whom have never sought financial assistance. I'm personally acquainted with a sister that was facing eviction from her apartment, and was denied financial assistance from her pastor. It surprises me that these very pastors will jump to a round of golf, hunting, and\or other recreational activities without hesitation, sadly while their congregants are financially needy.


I've encountered various excuses why some pastors are non-employed, and the most popular response being "what if a saint needs me while I'm at work?" Readers, please understand what I'm about to state. For this reason precisely saints are more dependent on their pastor than God. Don't misunderstand me, I believe every man/women needs a pastor, but the problem lies when the congregant dials their pastor's number before petitioning an omnipotent immutable God! Many saints have failed reaching new spiritual dimensions, all due to their pastor's pastoral-ship.


Undoubtedly, certain pastors enjoy pastoring congregants who possess a pastoral dependency mentality. Many pastors draw their security from these types of congregants, and in doing so, these pastors build themselves a cankered pedestal and transform themselves into dictators. Also, congregants with this mentality are rendered more susceptible to pastoral manipulation (e.g. do what I say and not what I do leadership). In regards to pastors and employment, Paul clearly expressed his opinion on the matter:


Acts 20:
33) I have never coveted anyone’s silver or gold or fine clothes.
34) You know that these hands of mine have worked to supply my own needs and even the needs of those who were with me.
35) And I have been a constant example..........


2 Thessalonians 3:
7) For you know that you ought to imitate us......
8) We never accepted food from anyone without paying for it. We worked hard day and night so we would not be a burden to any of you.
9) We certainly had the right to ask you to feed us, but we wanted to give you an example to follow.
10) Even while we were with you, we gave you this command: “Those unwilling to work will not get to eat.”


Whether our role is an apostle, prophet, evangelist, pastor and/or teacher, I find those callings a privilege rather than an occupation. Paul's calling was an apostle while his occupation was a tent builder. I understand evangelist travel from church to church, city to city preaching the gospel. However, Phillip (Acts 21:8) traveled city to city preaching the gospel as an itinerant preacher, preaching the gospel to non-evangelized or non-church existing locations. So why does the role of a current evangelist consist of traveling from church to church? Why does the role from an ACTS evangelist differ from our modern day evangelist role?

Baloney!!!

I know of very few pastors that would do that! On the contrary, I have seen the opposite so my positive seeing cancels out your negative seeing and we are back to a nuetral!

I personally know that our Pastor has carried one family here, splitting his own paycheck, for over 8 months through this current recession. He has a rental house and they have stayed for free throughout this time.

He has taken food, countless times, so that they can eat. The man is working, yet he just can't find steady work!

I know of another situation where he helped a man out that was behind on his house payments. The problem was not that the man did not have the money, but that he was not being a wise steward of his money. The first time, Pastor helped him out. The scond time, Pastor let him sink knowing that was the only way the man might learn a lesson. The man did not want to learn what God was trying to show him, ie good stewardship.

Brother, you don't know the whole situation and, in defense of the ministry, I would have to say you are wrong until you can prove otherwise!

TJJJ

[Steve Epley]

Originally Posted by Stephanas

Wow! Just.... WOW! What a colossal waste of bandwidth!

A disigenuous misrepresentation of Paul's teaching on support for the ministry.

1 Timothy 5:17-18 (AMP)

17 Let the elders who perform the duties of their office well be considered doubly worthy of honor [and of adequate financial support], especially those who labor faithfully in preaching and teaching.

18 For the Scripture says, You shall not muzzle an ox when it is treading out the grain, and again, The laborer is worthy of his hire. [Deut 25:4; Luke 10:7.]


Philippians 4:14-17 (NIV)
14 Yet it was good of you to share in my troubles. 15 Moreover, as you Philippians know, in the early days of your acquaintance with the gospel, when I set out from Macedonia, not one church shared with me in the matter of giving and receiving, except you only; 16 for even when I was in Thessalonica, you sent me aid again and again when I was in need. 17 Not that I am looking for a gift, but I am looking for what may be credited to your account.


While Paul chose not to exercise his right to support, he did emphatically contend that he had a right of support from those he ministered to:

1 Corinthians 9:3-16 (NLT)

3 This is my answer to those who question my authority. 4 Don't we have the right to live in your homes and share your meals? 5 Don't we have the right to bring a Christian wife with us as the other disciples and the Lord's brothers do, and as Peter does? 6 Or is it only Barnabas and I who have to work to support ourselves?

7 What soldier has to pay his own expenses? What farmer plants a vineyard and doesn't have the right to eat some of its fruit? What shepherd cares for a flock of sheep and isn't allowed to drink some of the milk? 8 Am I expressing merely a human opinion, or does the law say the same thing? 9 For the law of Moses says, "You must not muzzle an ox to keep it from eating as it treads out the grain." Was God thinking only about oxen when he said this? 10 Wasn't he actually speaking to us? Yes, it was written for us, so that the one who plows and the one who threshes the grain might both expect a share of the harvest.

11 Since we have planted spiritual seed among you, aren't we entitled to a harvest of physical food and drink? 12 If you support others who preach to you, shouldn't we have an even greater right to be supported? But we have never used this right. We would rather put up with anything than be an obstacle to the Good News about Christ.

13 Don't you realize that those who work in the temple get their meals from the offerings brought to the temple? And those who serve at the altar get a share of the sacrificial offerings. 14 In the same way, the Lord ordered that those who preach the Good News should be supported by those who benefit from it. 15 Yet I have never used any of these rights. And I am not writing this to suggest that I want to start now. In fact, I would rather die than lose my right to boast about preaching without charge.

Forget it these folks hate preachers. And could care less what the Bible says.
I have paid saint's rent, made car payments, bought them clothes, carried them groceries, took them to the doctor and aoid the bill, bought tires for their cars, fixed their transmissions, drove them across states to visit their sick relatives in hospitals, ran the tires off my car visiting hospitals-nursing homes, jails, senior saint's homes to check on them when their kids didn't have the time. Sorry this pushed my button.

[Steve Epley]

Originally Posted by TJJJ

Baloney!!!

I know of very few pastors that would do that! On the contrary, I have seen the opposite so my positive seeing cancels out your negative seeing and we are back to a nuetral!

I personally know that our Pastor has carried one family here, splitting his own paycheck, for over 8 months through this current recession. He has a rental house and they have stayed for free throughout this time.

He has taken food, countless times, so that they can eat. The man is working, yet he just can't find steady work!

I know of another situation where he helped a man out that was behind on his house payments. The problem was not that the man did not have the money, but that he was not being a wise steward of his money. The first time, Pastor helped him out. The scond time, Pastor let him sink knowing that was the only way the man might learn a lesson. The man did not want to learn what God was trying to show him, ie good stewardship.

Brother, you don't know the whole situation and, in defense of the ministry, I would have to say you are wrong until you can prove otherwise!

TJJJ

Thank you.

[KWSS1976]

Don't know I don't ask for help from the chuch if I got a problem I don't depend on the church to bail me out...LOL