Do you Believe that God is "PERFECTLY LOVING?

crakjak · #1 02-12-2007, 11:53 PM

You may say God is "just" and the He is "holy", but neither characteristic requires that God be LOVE? God could be just and holy, yet not be perfectly loving!

#2 02-13-2007, 11:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by crakjak

You may say God is "just" and the He is "holy", but neither characteristic requires that God be LOVE? God could be just and holy, yet not be perfectly loving!

God is absolutely perfect in ALL of His attributes. To say otherwise is blasphemy!

crakjak · #3 02-13-2007, 10:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chan

God is absolutely perfect in ALL of His attributes. To say otherwise is blasphemy!

I agree that God is perfect in ALL His attributes. I raise the discussion because the traditions of men attribute characteristics to God that do not reflect perfect love, therefore the question.

For example, how is it possible for a perfectly loving God to create for, or to allow humans to be born for eternal damnation (endless tortment)? Absolutely no presentation of endless tortment can be defined as perfectly loving.

Of course I do not agree with the "eternal tortment" assertion. God is perfectly loving therefore this tradition of man is patently false.

#4 02-14-2007, 02:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by crakjak

I agree that God is perfect in ALL His attributes. I raise the discussion because the traditions of men attribute characteristics to God that do not reflect perfect love, therefore the question.

For example, how is it possible for a perfectly loving God to create for, or to allow humans to be born for eternal damnation (endless tortment)? Absolutely no presentation of endless tortment can be defined as perfectly loving.

Of course I do not agree with the "eternal tortment" assertion. God is perfectly loving therefore this tradition of man is patently false.

I think that this notion that a God of "perfect love" would not punish someone for all of eternity is a false argument and denies God's being perfectly holy and just. It is out of perfect love that God sent His only begotten Son to die on the cross for His elect but it is out of perfect justice that God will eternally punish the wicked. "And these shall go away into everlasting fire..." Also, keep in mind the scripture "Jacob I loved but Esau I hated."

Neck · #5 02-14-2007, 02:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by crakjak

You may say God is "just" and the He is "holy", but neither characteristic requires that God be LOVE? God could be just and holy, yet not be perfectly loving!

"God is Love", and he commands us too love.

His Love may not always he attributed to what man views as holy, merciful or just.

But understand one thing, God Loves the righteous man.

As for the sinner God is the judge.

#6 02-14-2007, 03:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Neckstadt

"God is Love", and he commands us too love.

His Love may not always he attributed to what man views as holy, merciful or just.

But understand one thing, God Loves the righteous man.

As for the sinner God is the judge.

That's the problem: so often people try to make it seem that God's love precludes Him from acting out of His perfect justice and holiness.

crakjak · #7 02-15-2007, 01:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chan

I think that this notion that a God of "perfect love" would not punish someone for all of eternity is a false argument and denies God's being perfectly holy and just. It is out of perfect love that God sent His only begotten Son to die on the cross for His elect but it is out of perfect justice that God will eternally punish the wicked. "And these shall go away into everlasting fire..." Also, keep in mind the scripture "Jacob I loved but Esau I hated."

How about (Amos 6.8), "The Lord God has sworn by Himself...'I abhor the pride of Jacob, and hate his strongholds; and I will deliver up the city and all that is in it'" Seems Jacob's lot has turned for the worse.

(Genesis 33.10) Jacob speaks of Esau after their reconcilation, "...for truly to see your face is like seeing the face of God--since you have received me with such favor." Seems Esau's lot had improved.

These words of love and hate speak of earthly positions and not of eternal destinations.

crakjak · #8 02-15-2007, 01:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Neckstadt

"God is Love", and he commands us too love.

His Love may not always he attributed to what man views as holy, merciful or just.

But understand one thing, God Loves the righteous man.

As for the sinner God is the judge.

I would not disagree with any of your statements, as stated. However, we cannot rightly attribute to God acts that defies love, and just say man can't understand.

Endless torture for any human is not holy, merciful, just or loving, therefore it cannot be true of God.

#9 02-15-2007, 10:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by crakjak

How about (Amos 6.8), "The Lord God has sworn by Himself...'I abhor the pride of Jacob, and hate his strongholds; and I will deliver up the city and all that is in it'" Seems Jacob's lot has turned for the worse.

There's a BIG difference between God saying He hates Jacob's (actually, the nation of Israel) pride and the nation's strongholds and God saying He hates Jacob himself.

Quote:

(Genesis 33.10) Jacob speaks of Esau after their reconcilation, "...for truly to see your face is like seeing the face of God--since you have received me with such favor." Seems Esau's lot had improved.

Not in the eyes of God.

Quote:

These words of love and hate speak of earthly positions and not of eternal destinations.

But the passage Paul quoted in Romans is about eternal election.

#10 02-15-2007, 10:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by crakjak

I would not disagree with any of your statements, as stated. However, we cannot rightly attribute to God acts that defies love, and just say man can't understand.

Defy love according to whom? According to you? Consider Romans 9:9-24...

"For this is what the promise said: 'About this time next year I will return and Sarah shall have a son.' And not only so, but also when Rebecca had conceived children by one man, our forefather Isaac, though they were not yet born and had done nothing either good or bad in order that God's purpose of election might continue, not because of works but because of his call - she was told, 'The older will serve the younger.' As it is written, 'Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.' What shall we say then? Is there injustice on God's part? By no means! For he says to Moses, 'I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.' So then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy. For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, 'For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I might show my power in you, and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.' So then he has mercy on whomever he wills, and he hardens whomever he wills. You will say to me then, 'Why does he still find fault? For who can resist his will?' But who are you, O man, to answer back to God? Will what is molded say to its molder, 'Why have you made me like this?' Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honored use and another for dishonorable use? What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, in order to make known the riches of his glory for vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory - even us whom he has called, not from the Jews only but also from the Gentiles?

Quote:

Endless torture for any human is not holy, merciful, just or loving, therefore it cannot be true of God.

According to whom? According to you? Where does the BIBLE say that endless punishment is not holy, merciful, just, or loving?