Un-Holy Trinity?

Praxeas · #1 02-12-2007, 09:45 PM

I've heard Trinitarians refer to this in Revelation as proof that God is a Trinity because otherwise why would the devil seek to conterfeit a trinity...

To begin with that is circular reasoning. This assumes that the intention was to conterfeit something in Triad form and not rather the Anti-Christ conterfeiting the real Christ

Second...since when is the Trinity ever described as a world wide leader and then a prophet that gave him power? Hmmm?

Third...if that is the case then maybe John was the Holy Ghost?

Fourth....we have two separate people....if we conclude there are three separate individuals...not merely three distinct individuals within the same nature/being, then what the Un-Holy Trininity really is is three gods.

Trinitarianism as defined by them is three persons who share the same one nature/being where as Tritheism is three persons who have their own being/nature...three beings. In Revelation we do not have three persons sharing the same body nor the same divine essence.

Thus this argument is really detrimental to the Trinity if one is going to insist on this unholy Trinity idea...

#2 02-13-2007, 11:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Praxeas

I've heard Trinitarians refer to this in Revelation as proof that God is a Trinity because otherwise why would the devil seek to conterfeit a trinity...

To begin with that is circular reasoning. This assumes that the intention was to conterfeit something in Triad form and not rather the Anti-Christ conterfeiting the real Christ

Second...since when is the Trinity ever described as a world wide leader and then a prophet that gave him power? Hmmm?

Third...if that is the case then maybe John was the Holy Ghost?

Fourth....we have two separate people....if we conclude there are three separate individuals...not merely three distinct individuals within the same nature/being, then what the Un-Holy Trininity really is is three gods.

Trinitarianism as defined by them is three persons who share the same one nature/being where as Tritheism is three persons who have their own being/nature...three beings. In Revelation we do not have three persons sharing the same body nor the same divine essence.

Thus this argument is really detrimental to the Trinity if one is going to insist on this unholy Trinity idea...

Having studied Bible prophecy myself, I have to say I'm not convinced there is this so-called "unholy trinity" and I most certainly do not believe Satan is trying to counterfeit what is understood by modern Trinitarians to be "the trinity." In order for Satan to counterfeit the Trinity, there would have to be one "satanic" substance/essence/being (ousia or hypostasis) that is shared by Satan, the Antichrist and the False Prophet. From my reading of Bible prophecy, I don't get the impression that the False Prophet is incarnated by Satan or otherwise has some sort of ontological connection to Satan.

Praxeas · #3 02-13-2007, 02:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chan

Having studied Bible prophecy myself, I have to say I'm not convinced there is this so-called "unholy trinity" and I most certainly do not believe Satan is trying to counterfeit what is understood by modern Trinitarians to be "the trinity." In order for Satan to counterfeit the Trinity, there would have to be one "satanic" substance/essence/being (ousia or hypostasis) that is shared by Satan, the Antichrist and the False Prophet. From my reading of Bible prophecy, I don't get the impression that the False Prophet is incarnated by Satan or otherwise has some sort of ontological connection to Satan.

Exactly...I wonder if Thomas Trinitarian is gonna show up

Arphaxad · #4 02-14-2007, 07:34 PM

Just one question can settle the godhead issue: Is Jesus in the Godhead, or is the Godhead in Jesus?
answer: For in Him (Jesus) dwells all the fullness of the Godhead bodily-Colossians 2:9
Does it say anywhere in the Bible that Jesus is just a part of the Godhead?

#5 02-15-2007, 10:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Arphaxad

Just one question can settle the godhead issue: Is Jesus in the Godhead, or is the Godhead in Jesus?
answer: For in Him (Jesus) dwells all the fullness of the Godhead bodily-Colossians 2:9
Does it say anywhere in the Bible that Jesus is just a part of the Godhead?

Neither does it say that Jesus IS the Godhead. By the way, the 17th century English word Godhead means nothing more than the modern English word godhood and the Greek words translated "Godhood" in the three KJV New Testament passages mean (depending on the passage) deity, divine nature, divinity, or godhood.

sola gratia · #6 03-14-2007, 09:49 AM

right on

Joelel · #7 03-14-2007, 12:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Arphaxad

Just one question can settle the godhead issue: Is Jesus in the Godhead, or is the Godhead in Jesus?
answer: For in Him (Jesus) dwells all the fullness of the Godhead bodily-Colossians 2:9
Does it say anywhere in the Bible that Jesus is just a part of the Godhead?

Hi Arp,Then I give you this question ? The God head is IN Jesus by the Spirit of God IN him and the Spirit is in us also,Does that make us God too ? Also when Jesus died,did the Spirit of God IN Jesus die ?

Joelel · #8 03-14-2007, 12:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chan

Neither does it say that Jesus IS the Godhead. By the way, the 17th century English word Godhead means nothing more than the modern English word godhood and the Greek words translated "Godhood" in the three KJV New Testament passages mean (depending on the passage) deity, divine nature, divinity, or godhood.

Hi Chan,Right,It don't say Jesus is the Godhead neither,It says the Godhead is IN Jesus,BIG differance.My bible teaches me ONLY the word of God was made flesh and the Spirit of God is IN Jesus.When Jesus died ONLY the word of God died,not the Spirit of God.

#9 03-14-2007, 01:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Joelel

Hi Arp,Then I give you this question ? The God head is IN Jesus by the Spirit of God IN him and the Spirit is in us also,Does that make us God too ? Also when Jesus died,did the Spirit of God IN Jesus die ?

Since "Godhead" means nothing more than "godhood" or divinity, i.e. the state of being divine, your question becomes the one addressed in Nestorius' objection to the Church's use of theotokos (God-bearer) in reference to Mary: was it God that died on the cross (thus making him not God since God is incapable of dying) or was it a human being that died on the cross (God's only begotten Son)? Nestorius was accused of heresy for insisting that those things pertaining to Jesus' divinity do not pertain to his humanity and those things pertaining to Jesus' humanity do not pertain to His divinity.

#10 03-14-2007, 01:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Joelel

Hi Chan,Right,It don't say Jesus is the Godhead neither,It says the Godhead is IN Jesus,BIG differance.My bible teaches me ONLY the word of God was made flesh and the Spirit of God is IN Jesus.When Jesus died ONLY the word of God died,not the Spirit of God.

Yes, this is true. Of course, the word "Godhead" is nothing more than a 17th century English word that means "godhood" or the state of being divine.

The Bible is clear that it was the logos (not merely spoken word but the thought and power behind that word - it is what the Jews understood as the memra or revealed essence of God) that became flesh not God in all His fullness (though all the fullness of deity did dwell in the flesh that the logos became).