What does it really take?

[SearchingOut]

Please bear with my long post. I would like to get some honest discussion on the topic and if I overlooked an identical post, I'll read that. I was a bit overwhelmed by the number of threads and didn't see what I was looking for.

I've been in church all my life, I've went to a relatively large church for most of my life who had iron standards that were rivaled only by the most conservative of the upci. Our leadership taught us that if you didn't do it our way then you weren't going to make it. We looked down on any churches who didn't believe what we did and spent youth services marvelling at all the churches who had gone "charismatic." The funny thing is that our friends from yesterday suddenly didn't meet our standards anymore so we chased new ones and finally resigned to solitude. We were closer at church than some of our genetic brothers and sisters for the most part and had incredible excitement and spirit. Our pastor was later convicted of sex crimes from being a little too close to some of the sisters, the church fell apart and I moved on.

I had spent most of my life convinced that I wouldn't make it anyways.

I then went to a really small church who again had iron standards. In fact if a friend in the ministry had a higher standard they would pick that up too. There were clothing inspections, other people enjoyed getting to walk out when someone did something that the church didn't believe in like video presentations of missionary events. Again, no socializing with those evil charismatics or the likes thereof (anyone with lower standards).

I still was convinced that I had a slim shot at making it all the way, but hey! gambling is better than not playing at all.

Now I'm going to a church that is an hour from where I live. It has standards that are biblically based only. If its not scriptural either by literal interpretation or at least by an arguable scriptural basis (i.e. pants are mens apparel whether they are labelled womens or not) then its not enforced. For the first time I feel like I really can make it, reaching an equalibrium of holiness and mercy but the church is so busy and intellectual that I've lost the enjoyment of church. My friends are those who can use me and for the most part only as long as they can use me. Then like a duster, I'm put back on the shelf for the next round. I really couldn't care a lot if I didn't go back.

The teaching is second to none and could be documented for theological discussion. I've never known more about scripture and why, but I'm drying up inside. I go to church and really enjoy it, join the masses heading through the door afterwards, do my duties for the church and then its over, back to the week again. I have never felt both so close to God at church and so far away when I'm not.


I guess my state of mind is disillusioned and confused. My question and point of this discussion is this:

In others opinions, what is it all about? Is it about my first location hating those who aren't as good and striving at an ever decreasing goal in the distance? Is it about competing with other churches to see who can have the shiniest book of standards? Is it about knowing so much about scripture that you can argue with the best theologians and look down on those who don't understand?

On the other side of the spectrum, I see those who were also disillusioned with it all and abandoned holiness entirely. Choosing to trust in God's mercy more than His Word. Allowing first one thing and then another until they are no longer distinguishable from the world. It becomes more of a confession of faith and handshake religion where anything goes that would make someone else uncomfortable.

Across the spectrum I see churches who excel in seemingly important areas and fail in others. The question is which is more important? Is it truely possibly to find a church that can reach an equalibrium of both maintaining holiness and biblical education and yet not become so businesslike that people can only be friends if they are in the same organizational unit?

For the first time in my life, I can truely understand why some people abandon the church idea and become spiritual nomads. I dont' think its right, but I can see the reason.


Is there anyone who has been here and back? Anyone who has really considered, more than for fear or comfort, why they are doing what they believe?

Please don't use this for a bashing opportunity. I'm turned off by the accusations and disdain and I'll just move on. The question is if you can help me.

Thanks

[scotty]

The answer to your problem is simple.

Your wrapped up in pleasing church rules and regs instead of pleasing God, I do believe you should find a good church but, Your using church to find God. Try using God to find a church.

[ILG]

Originally Posted by SearchingOut

Please bear with my long post. I would like to get some honest discussion on the topic and if I overlooked an identical post, I'll read that. I was a bit overwhelmed by the number of threads and didn't see what I was looking for.

I've been in church all my life, I've went to a relatively large church for most of my life who had iron standards that were rivaled only by the most conservative of the upci. Our leadership taught us that if you didn't do it our way then you weren't going to make it. We looked down on any churches who didn't believe what we did and spent youth services marvelling at all the churches who had gone "charismatic." The funny thing is that our friends from yesterday suddenly didn't meet our standards anymore so we chased new ones and finally resigned to solitude. We were closer at church than some of our genetic brothers and sisters for the most part and had incredible excitement and spirit. Our pastor was later convicted of sex crimes from being a little too close to some of the sisters, the church fell apart and I moved on.

I had spent most of my life convinced that I wouldn't make it anyways.

I then went to a really small church who again had iron standards. In fact if a friend in the ministry had a higher standard they would pick that up too. There were clothing inspections, other people enjoyed getting to walk out when someone did something that the church didn't believe in like video presentations of missionary events. Again, no socializing with those evil charismatics or the likes thereof (anyone with lower standards).

I still was convinced that I had a slim shot at making it all the way, but hey! gambling is better than not playing at all.

Now I'm going to a church that is an hour from where I live. It has standards that are biblically based only. If its not scriptural either by literal interpretation or at least by an arguable scriptural basis (i.e. pants are mens apparel whether they are labelled womens or not) then its not enforced. For the first time I feel like I really can make it, reaching an equalibrium of holiness and mercy but the church is so busy and intellectual that I've lost the enjoyment of church. My friends are those who can use me and for the most part only as long as they can use me. Then like a duster, I'm put back on the shelf for the next round. I really couldn't care a lot if I didn't go back.

The teaching is second to none and could be documented for theological discussion. I've never known more about scripture and why, but I'm drying up inside. I go to church and really enjoy it, join the masses heading through the door afterwards, do my duties for the church and then its over, back to the week again. I have never felt both so close to God at church and so far away when I'm not.


I guess my state of mind is disillusioned and confused. My question and point of this discussion is this:

In others opinions, what is it all about? Is it about my first location hating those who aren't as good and striving at an ever decreasing goal in the distance? Is it about competing with other churches to see who can have the shiniest book of standards? Is it about knowing so much about scripture that you can argue with the best theologians and look down on those who don't understand?

On the other side of the spectrum, I see those who were also disillusioned with it all and abandoned holiness entirely. Choosing to trust in God's mercy more than His Word. Allowing first one thing and then another until they are no longer distinguishable from the world. It becomes more of a confession of faith and handshake religion where anything goes that would make someone else uncomfortable.

Across the spectrum I see churches who excel in seemingly important areas and fail in others. The question is which is more important? Is it truely possibly to find a church that can reach an equalibrium of both maintaining holiness and biblical education and yet not become so businesslike that people can only be friends if they are in the same organizational unit?

For the first time in my life, I can truely understand why some people abandon the church idea and become spiritual nomads. I dont' think its right, but I can see the reason.


Is there anyone who has been here and back? Anyone who has really considered, more than for fear or comfort, why they are doing what they believe?

Please don't use this for a bashing opportunity. I'm turned off by the accusations and disdain and I'll just move on. The question is if you can help me.

Thanks

SearchingOut,

As someone who was UPC for almost 20 years and pastored with my husband, I will say I appreciate your honest and heartfelt post. We left the UPC over 3 years ago and I say, hey, I dunno. Maybe somebody has some decent insight. You might have to overlook a few superior tones but I, too, am interested in the answers.

ILG

[scotty]

Originally Posted by ILG

SearchingOut,

As someone who was UPC for almost 20 years and pastored with my husband, I will say I appreciate your honest and heartfelt post. We left the UPC over 3 years ago and I say, hey, I dunno. Maybe somebody has some decent insight. You might have to overlook a few superior tones but I, too, am interested in the answers.

ILG

Hmmm, seeing as he has not mentioned the org of his original church, it can only be assumed he is speaking of UPC since they made him jump through hoops of fire and endure clothing inspections in order to be saved.

But your probably right, we have that reputation. However it should be asked so that we may respond properly.

Searchingout, what was the exact affiliation of the churches you attended with such strict standards ?

[TK Burk]

SearchingOut,

I always premise my lessons on holiness by first saying: holiness does not make me better than someone else; holiness makes me better than myself. Those who live 'holiness' to be better than another person or to be accepted by another person are doing so for the wrong reason. Convictions are to be lived because a person loves Jesus, not because they seek the approval of men.

Focusing on performance can cause a person to become disillusioned, hurt, or legalistic. Disillusioned because they never are able to reach their goals through their efforts; hurt because they feel betrayed since the very things Jesus and His Word projects they should be, they do not reach; legalistic because they start comparing their position with others so they can make excuse for their shortcomings. I have seen each of these manifested in individuals who focus on fruit from their own performance. What we must do is find our identity IN CHRIST! I have learned that an identity crisis is the result of a lack of an identity in Christ.

Walking with the Law is about obedience; walking with Jesus in His New Covenant is about relationship. Time and again Jesus referenced a husband and wife’s relationship to this latter type walking. Is the husband any more married to the wife if he does the stuff on her honey-do list? Is the wife any more married to the husband if she fries his chicken exactly how he likes? No, they are married not because of what they do, but because of their commitment to each other. So WHY does the husband work the list and WHY does the wife cook a certain way—not to be MORE married, but instead to please the one to whom they are married. So this is not about doing to remain in love, but about doing because of love.

Similarly, the issues and particulars of the way I walk in my relationship with Jesus is governed, not by fear of losing my salvation, but by desiring to please the one with whom I have my salvation—Jesus. Therefore, my choices do not make me more saved, but instead remove obstacles that may limit me from growing closer to Jesus.

Why would I not want to do all that I can to please Jesus? He is the one who said to love Him with ALL our heart, soul, mind, and strength, and to love our neighbor as ourselves. God does look a man’s heart; but their neighbor only sees what is on the outside. Jesus was very down on those who offended and caused others to stumble through their outward actions and relationships. Paul agreed with this stance and told believers not to eat meat in the market if it might cause others to fall. Because of such things, we see that the age old question is still in effect: “Am I my brother’s keeper?” The Bible—especially the New Testament—clearly answers this with an echoing “YES!”

Many think legalism is just harsh demands forced upon another to make them DO something to be saved. Really though, legalism is self-inflicted and deceptive. Its true nature causes one to become self-righteous about their current achievements. Such complacency causes such a person to then barter away the new man’s opportunity to mature into more Christlikeness in preference to the old man’s struggle for self-preservation and self-gratification. Because they were in this latter crowd, the Pharisees are more aligned with liberals than they are with conservatives. Not that what they did was always against the things of God, but rather what they made allowances and excuses for not doing; these caused Jesus to speak out against their ranks.

The Pharisees’ unwillingness to change caused them to work against the very salvation they thought they were partaking of and protecting. It’s sad to think the freedom one thinks they have may actually be imprisoning them from growing in the grace and the knowledge of the Lord Jesus Christ. Where men get confused is in not realizing it’s not about being set-free from enslavement, but rather in being enslaved to the correct master. One master is self-serving and binds and constricts his servants from spiritually maturing; the other master looks after his servants’ best interests, and because so, he keeps and protects them as his own, always seeking ways whereby they can grow into matured Christlikeness. Isn’t this second view what the scriptures are conferring when saying Jesus is the “author and finisher of our faith,” and that we are “complete in Him” (See Heb 12:2; Col 2:10)?

Remember, holiness does not make me better than someone else; holiness makes me better than myself. Because of this I think questions like “can I still do such-in-such and remain saved?” are better replaced with, “what more can I do to please Jesus since He saved me?” Every issue and circumstance of life may not always be salvational, but certainly they will always be relational; such are the issues of holiness.

I pray that Jesus gives you His peace and His wisdom!

[mfblume]

Holiness has lost its meaning. It simply means belonging to God. It implies acting like we belong to Him. And we have holiness the second we're saved. We just work it out into our lifestyles after.

We do nothing to BE SAVED by way of acts of holiness, but we do them BECAUSE we're saved.

[iceniez]

I think there is a certain "High" from think we are it.The truth is though We infact are not it,Jesus is.I totaly understand where you are .I have been guilty of it ,trying to fit in to what others feel that being Christian is,trying to look Apostolic at the expence of who I am, and giving up the freedom to PLEASE JESUS.I did say freedom,Trying to follow the LAW is death to freedom.Read Acts 15 see what the apostles required.The one verse that freed me up is Act 15:10.

[mizpeh]

Searching,

God loves you with a passionate love. It is His will to give you eternal life (the kingdom of God). He is on your side. He doesn't want you to perish. Believe Him. Seek Him. Walk with Him. Trust Him. Praise Him. Don't listen to the negative and contrary fiery darts of the devil that cause you to doubt God and His ability and love for you in any way.

Stop looking at others for whatever reason and pray for them instead. Don't look for perfection in man, in the preacher, in your brethren because you won't find it and more importantly you won't find it in yourself. And lastly don't give up on yourself but trust in God to change things, even to change you and help you to overcome the things you struggle with. Rest in Him and wait patiently for Him. He will complete the good work He started in you.

[SOUNWORTHY]

Searchingout, you are not alone in your thinking. I have been upc most of my life and that's not a short time. I set in a service and when I leave to go home I have the feeling I just don't measure up even though I do everything I know to do. People around me are running, dancing, shouting and even though that is good, I don't do any of those things, I weep when I feel the presence of God. I have asked so many times 'What does God really want from me" ? There are two scriptures that keep me going. He who endures to the end shall be saved and the Rightous shall live by faith. As for me I constantly examine myself and compare myself not to other men but the word of God. Man will fail you and use you but God will not.I left UPC for awhile, the people in the new church were great and I developed many friends but when I really needed those friends when my wife passed away they just wasn't there, I was left alone. You know what, I still love those friends and it made me examine myself and I found out there had been times in the past that I may not have been there when I was needed by my friends.

As far as being hurt by those in the church, There are two places we are most apt to be hurt, Our church family and our natural family. Remember when Jesus was asked where he received those scars he said "in the house of my friends" Don't loose faith and don't let others influence your walk with God, hang in there and endure till the end. It'll be worth it all.

La vie est un voyage, pas une destination.

Don

[ManOfWord]

True holiness or a revelation of it does not cause us to walk more "upright" as in superiority. True holiness cause us to fall on our faces before the Lord knowing that only HE can truly make us holy by imparting His righteousness to us! That being said, we ARE to walk and live like we belong to HIM, as has been stated above. Holiness does not bring me salvation or cause me to get closer to it. Salvation brings me holiness!