Do you choose what you believe in?

[Questioner]

Hello, I'm not here to fight or debate but would appreciate any reference material that anyone could recommend on the subject. I am also NOT looking for prayer or pity or anything of the sort.

I wasn't sure exactly how to title this post... but this the best I can come up with.

Do you choose what you believe in, or is it something out of your control? Do you choose to like ice cream? Will reading about ice cream make you more likely or less likely to like ice cream... or is it just a part of you that you cannot control that determines whether you like ice cream.......... (fyi - this analogy is for those who's response to my post will be that I need to read my Bible or pray, which I can go through the motions of but my heart really isn't in it... which of course will mean I should just pray even harder and read my bible even more, etc. ad infinitium)...

The reason I ask is - I believe I am becoming an atheist or agnostic... not by choice, I don't believe that you actually "choose" to believe in something...... you either do believe things or you don't, and nothing short of an epiphany or paradigm shift can change that. I have questioned things my entire life, even as a child... even in Sunday School.

Religion (of any sort) seems more far-fetched the older I get. I realize that most people become MORE religious and/or spiritual as they get older, but for some reason the reverse is happening to me (I am approaching 40 if it matters).

I was raised in a UPC home, have several generations of Apostolic heritage and the majority of my relatives are UPC. I have been baptized (in Jesus name) and have spoken in tongues.

I assume that this makes me an apostate or reprobate or something of the sort. I always thought that the truth... my heritage... could stand up to questioning, however it seems to have backfired in my case.

Admin - would appreciate if you could keep my identity private (I am making some attempt to conceal it so as not to hurt family and friends, but have not covered my tracks as far as my IP address). I will also be choosing my words carefully so that people cannot figure out who I am.

All I am looking for are any books that may assist me with this subject... I would be looking for things that approach God on a logical level and not on an emotional level, if that makes any sense... and it needs to be several steps above the Kirk Cameron type videos...

I won't engage in any debate, and will try to ignore any emotional scare tactics that will surely follow my posting this.

Thank you for your time... I consider some of you my friends and find it really hard to write this, but have been meaning to do something like this for some time. I am also interested in knowing if anyone else has been through this, or knows anyone who has similar feelings and tries to hide them from friends and family so as not to upset them.

[ILG]

Since I work in a library I know of and have read a lot of books. These will need to be read with caution but I am not a proponent of censorship (unless we are talking about indoctrinating kids or looking at porn on the computer). I think broadening the mind can be good and make us stronger....not weaker.

Any books by Ehrman, Bart D. are very academic and will make you think. He has a video series Lost Christianities Christian Scriptures And The Battles Over Authentication by Ehrman, Bart D.

I have read a number of leaving books like Crossing Over : One Woman's Escape From Amish Life by Garrett, Ruth Irene, and Leaving church : a memoir of faith / Barbara Brown Taylor. And Leaving the Saints : how I lost the Mormons and found my faith / Martha Beck.

I did a searh on religious fundamentalism in my library consortium and came up with these ( have not read them.) : Bondage of the mind : how Old Testament fundamentalism shackles the mind and enslaves the spirit : toward a better understanding of the religious experience / R. D. Gold. And Get unstuck from fundamentalism : a spiritual journey / Robert P. Crosby.

Atheism: Why I became an atheist : a former preacher rejects Christianity / John W. Loftus. And Freedom from God : restoring the sense of wonder / Harry Wilson.

God is not great : how religion poisons everything / Christopher Hitchens.

So, these are books from the "opposing" side that will feed your mind and help you sort fact from fiction. In my personal journey with all of this, I have had to remember that the saints overcame the wicked one by the blood of the Lamb and by the word of our testimony. I cannot deny what happened to me when I was saved nor all the many miracles I have seen. This keeps me from becoming an atheist or an agnostic. What I am is a religious skeptic. I am a definite believer in God......now religion is another matter entirely.

[TRFrance]

Well.. lots of stuff there in that post to chew on, Mr. Questioner, but anyway...this is my take on it. (This will be a bit long, but bear with me.)

I think that taking a 100% rational/scientific/"provable" approach to the God question will never really work. There is always going to have to be an element of faith involved. Someone could recommend all the books they want, but if you choose not to believe in your heart , it really wont matter much.

I mean lets be real here... You once got filled with the Holy Ghost and spoke in tongues, and now you're borderline atheist?? The infilling of the Holy Ghost is one of the most powerful and real interactions a person could ever have with God. So then for you to now apparently disregard that and be now considering atheism (?!) tells me you never really cultivated and developed your relationship with God the way you could have/should have.
(By the way, please understand, I'm not trying to "point the finger" or sound harsh in saying this, but I'm just speaking in a straightforward way.)

If you've been in and around UPC churches I'm assuming you've been in places where the Lord gave messages either by tongues-and-interpretation, or the gift of prophecy. Personally, whenever I have been in such situations I've always been awed by the presence of God. That is something no-one can ever take away from me. Like they say "a man with an argument is no match for a man with an experience". God has been so real in my life that no amount of human rationale or skepticism I encounter from anyone will ever take away what God has firmly planted in my mind and spirit. In the end, it comes down to relationship more than anything else.

Yes I believe there are rational reasons to believe in God, and rational reasons to believe in Christianity in partiular; and there are several books and videos on apologetics etc that I have recommended in the past. I break it down on 2 levels: A/ Is there solid reason to believe there is a God who made all this, and B/ Is there solid reason for me to believe that God presents his message to mankind via the Bible and Christianity ? To me, it's a slam dunk... the answer is a resounding yes to both questions, and the evidence is rock solid.

But in the end, I dont know if that will be enough for someone who may already have a mindset to only regard the measurable and the scientific, and disregard the spiritual and experiential. In other words, reading books will probably not lead a man back to relationship with God if his heart is closed to the drawing of the Holy Spirit.

Those who regard the intellect over everything else sometimes struggle with issues of faith, because in our walk with God, faith simply trumps intellect. What I mean by that is, there is always a "tough question" that someone can ask you that you wont know the answer to. If you let that kill your faith, you wont really be able to have a walk with God, because none of us have all the answers. In my own case, I've done a lot of reading, and have been able to answer many of the questions skeptics ask about God, Christianity, etc, but I know I dont have all the answers -- nobody does. And the fact that I cant give a "pat answer" to a particular tough question will never override my faith in God, because 1/ my relationship with God is solid 2/ my experiences with God are irrefutable. (I pray in tongues almost daily, and know that the origin is supernatural, and not from my own mind... and I've had people give me a prophetic "word" from the Lord that I know could only have come from Him. and 3/ I believe that the historical and scientific evidence on record overwhelmingly validates the Bible and the Christian message, regardless of whether I can answer every "tough question or not". But my faith in God is not based on such evidence. Such evidence only serves to strengthen the faith I already had in God anyway.

But anyway, as far as your question about references....
I would recommend "The Case for Christ" and "The Case for a Creator", both books by Lee Strobel. Also "Evidence That Demands a Verdict" is a good book... and there's also a video by the same title that's available free online

HERE

. Also I like a lot of the Creation Science videos by Kent Hovind, among others. There are many available on google video, including one of my favorites by Hovind, "Lies in the Textbooks" , found

HERE

.

But all that being said, yes, I'd recommend you pray also... in particular regarding your past experiences, in terms of what you've experienced and/or witnessed in your time growing up in Pentecost, and let the Lord confirm in your own mind and spirit that it was really Him that you had an encounter with. Fact is, after reading whatever books and reference materials you get your hands on, you're still going to have to end up talking to Him, and allowing Him to touch you, and bring you to where you need to be spritually.

Hope this helps somewhat.
Be blessed.

[ReformedDave]

TRFRANCE, you said a mouthful in your post. Could you explain your definition of 'faith' and is it antithetical to 'reason'?

[ILG]

Originally Posted by TRFrance

I mean lets be real here... You once got filled with the Holy Ghost and spoke in tongues, and now you're borderline atheist?? The infilling of the Holy Ghost is one of the most powerful and real interactions a person could ever have with God.

I'm not saying this applies to this instance, but what if someone who was raised in the church was pressured to speak in tongues and then someone said "You just got the Holy Ghost!" I've seen this happen to my own kids. It makes me sometimes wonder if they got what I got.

[mfblume]

You choose to believe FOR YOURSELF what you will believe. But at the same time, you must realize we cannot choose what is truth. Truth is truth, no matter if we believe it or not. But it is our choice to believe it or not.

[Questioner]

Thanks all, I'll give more time for comments and then respond... there are some subjects that I can't really discuss without starting a debate, such as witnessing tongues my whole life, etc. (which I have) so I will try to avoid those...

[Jermyn Davidson]

I believe one has to choose to believe.


There have been times where I have rationalized, "there is no god." These were times of great pain and loneliness for me and for my family. My Dad, who made me feel like he hated me when I was a kid, my Dad is an Apostolic Pastor who has very quirky ways and has Pastored for over twenty years, never having more than 50 church members at one time. He works so hard, but his efforts seem vain. I got involved with the UPCI as a young adult and on more than one occasion, I've felt betrayed by swallowing hook line and sinker all of my experiences, thoughts, teachings as God inspired.

So one day, life just evolved into something really bad and depressing. Things were just so out of whack, made some really poor lifestyle choices and bad financial decisions and all that I knew of and remembered of God (good and bad) seemed out of touch with that current reality.



But, by God's Grace, I have chosen to believe.

He gives everyone that same Grace-- the opportunity to choose to believe or not to believe.

I have rationalized what if Christianity is just one gigantic manmade construct. I decided that even if it was, it's a great life to strive for.

It's good to have a purpose and a sense of the eternal active in your mortal life. I find my sense of the eternal in knowing Jesus. He gives me hope on my darkest days, when the good things evade me and it seems like I'll always grapple with the same issues.

Just this morning, God brought to my mind the 145th division of Pslams, verses 15 and 16.

"The eyes of all wait upon thee, and thou giveth them their meat in due season. Thou openest thine hand and satisfiest the desire of every living thing."

He is not just my source for stuff, He's my best friend, though often I'm not a good friend to Him. I'm working on that, even today.

Without faith in God, I'd be a very bitter and angry man. I'd probably be a dead man. I've rationalized this too and I am telling you the truth when I say I'd be dead already, if it had not been for the blood of Jesus.

I realize these things and maybe your situation(s) are completely different from my experiences that caused me to question.

However, if you continue to choose to believe in God, believe that He will do for you what is needed-- what you can't do for yourself.


One day, you're gonna need Him. You're really going to need Him.

[Cindy]

Originally Posted by Questioner

Hello, I'm not here to fight or debate but would appreciate any reference material that anyone could recommend on the subject. I am also NOT looking for prayer or pity or anything of the sort.

I wasn't sure exactly how to title this post... but this the best I can come up with.

Do you choose what you believe in, or is it something out of your control? Do you choose to like ice cream? Will reading about ice cream make you more likely or less likely to like ice cream... or is it just a part of you that you cannot control that determines whether you like ice cream.......... (fyi - this analogy is for those who's response to my post will be that I need to read my Bible or pray, which I can go through the motions of but my heart really isn't in it... which of course will mean I should just pray even harder and read my bible even more, etc. ad infinitium)...

The reason I ask is - I believe I am becoming an atheist or agnostic... not by choice, I don't believe that you actually "choose" to believe in something...... you either do believe things or you don't, and nothing short of an epiphany or paradigm shift can change that. I have questioned things my entire life, even as a child... even in Sunday School.

Religion (of any sort) seems more far-fetched the older I get. I realize that most people become MORE religious and/or spiritual as they get older, but for some reason the reverse is happening to me (I am approaching 40 if it matters).

I was raised in a UPC home, have several generations of Apostolic heritage and the majority of my relatives are UPC. I have been baptized (in Jesus name) and have spoken in tongues.

I assume that this makes me an apostate or reprobate or something of the sort. I always thought that the truth... my heritage... could stand up to questioning, however it seems to have backfired in my case.

Admin - would appreciate if you could keep my identity private (I am making some attempt to conceal it so as not to hurt family and friends, but have not covered my tracks as far as my IP address). I will also be choosing my words carefully so that people cannot figure out who I am.

All I am looking for are any books that may assist me with this subject... I would be looking for things that approach God on a logical level and not on an emotional level, if that makes any sense... and it needs to be several steps above the Kirk Cameron type videos...

I won't engage in any debate, and will try to ignore any emotional scare tactics that will surely follow my posting this.

Thank you for your time... I consider some of you my friends and find it really hard to write this, but have been meaning to do something like this for some time. I am also interested in knowing if anyone else has been through this, or knows anyone who has similar feelings and tries to hide them from friends and family so as not to upset them.

I think the biggest question is, why would you choose not to believe?

[TRFrance]

Originally Posted by ReformedDave

TRFRANCE, you said a mouthful in your post. Could you explain your definition of 'faith' and is it antithetical to 'reason'?

Well, I guess 10 people can give you 10 different definitions. And even the same person could give you different definitions, depening on the situational context being discussed...

But in a nutshell, I primarily think of faith on 2 levels.
Faith that there is a God up there to begin with.
And Faith IN God, (That is, faith that God will provide, as the Bible says... faith that God is just and will always do the right thing by me, etc)

Obviously one wont have faith IN Him, if they don't even believe he exists.

So in the context of what the original poster is referring to, I'm really talking primarily about faith that He is real, to begin with. And secondarily, faith in the sense that we should believe in His Word, and the path laid out by his Word, the Bible, to the extent that we would choose to give our lives according to the Biblical path given to us.

--------
Is faith antithetical to reason?
I'm not sure what angle you're coming from with that, but I'd say it's not necessarily antithetical to reason, although in the minds of some, it could be.

For example, in the minds of some, there cant be a God, because "why would he let innocent people die in earthquakes?", etc. Thus they think faith in God defies reason and is irrational. Simply because they cant wrap their minds around the idea that a God could allow innocents to die in natural disasters, they feel that faith in God is unreasonable.

But faith in God says that even though I might not be able to explain to your satisfaction why God would allow innocents to die in earthquakes, it doesnt negate my solid belief that He exists, nor that He is good, even though I cant explain all of His acts, or why He allows some things to happen.

Hope that makes sense somewhat.